Ceramic Media

haulme

New Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
59
Reaction score
0
Hi guys

I've searched on ceramic media to find no clear answer. My tank has been running just almost 2 months now.

Should I remove the ceramic media in my cannister filter? If so why? I heard it works against the live rock but for what reason

i have a bag of rawphos, purigen, carbon filter, white looking filter and bioballs. I also have about 23kg of live rock in a 50 us gallon tank.
 
Should I remove the ceramic media in my cannister filter? If so why? I heard it works against the live rock but for what reason

As far as I know having ceramic media in there shouldn't work against the live rock in any way. I assume your reffering to those ceramic ring thingys? Those tend to trap large debris before they turn into nitrate. No harm in having them there.
 
mechanical filtration materials in a marine tank build up detrius which in turn build up nitrates faster than the live rock can remove them. Most of us remove everything like ceramic rings, sponges, bio balls, etc. and only ude liverock for filtration. If you do decide to remove the ceramic don't remove it all at once. Remove a bit at a time everytime you do a water change.
 
mechanical filtration materials in a marine tank build up detrius which in turn build up nitrates faster than the live rock can remove them. Most of us remove everything like ceramic rings, sponges, bio balls, etc. and only ude liverock for filtration. If you do decide to remove the ceramic don't remove it all at once. Remove a bit at a time everytime you do a water change.

I agree. The creamic rings, when acting as a bio-filter, only provide aerobic filtration: they convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Live rock can perform both aerobic and anaerobic filtration: It can do what ceramic rings can, plus it can convert nitrate to nitrite to free nitrogen.

With a sensibly stocked tank, sufficient live rock, and good nutrient export (working protein skimmer and/or a nutrient sink such as a macroalgae refugium or deep sand bed) this means that, after a break-in period, all nitrogenous wastes should tend toward zero - or at least be very low, as wastes are almost entirely processed within the live rock. When you add more aerobic-only filtration, your net result will be nitrate. Which means algae.

What you should do depends on your stocking levels, the amount of live rock you have, and your nutrient export regime. For a sensibly stocked reef with good quantities of live rock, good flow and a protein skimmer, I'd ditch any other biological or mechanical filtration.

John
 
I have an Eheim 2213 on my tank with Ehfi Mech (Ceramic Rings) and Ehfi Substrat (sintered glass) media.

The only potential down side of ceramic rings is that if you have too much of them you get dead spots within the rings...

Ben
 
I am sometimes confused by how the ceramic media will become a nitrate factory, converting ammonia through to nitrate quicker than the live rock can deal with it. Surely if it isn't being turned into nitrate it is staying as either ammonia and nitrite, and we all know which of those three is the most acceptable in an aquarium.

So long as you don't let an excessive amount of detritus build up, I fail to see how it can be a problem. As far as I can see, most people who report nitrate factories (especially with wet/dry) seem to set them up and leave them for months, which WILL cause you problems, but well maintained wet/dry are the mainstay of large marine pred tanks, so they can't be that bad.
 
The reason they are nitrate factories is due to the fact that they are excellent filters. They can process so much amonia and nitrite that they create nitrate at a rate greater than the live rock can process it into nitrogen. Thus nitrate levels climb. For instance it takes a denitrate filter over six months to grow enough bacteria to be able to consume nitrate. It take a regular filter about a month to cycle and consume amonia and nitrite. The different bacterias grow and populate at a different rate and while the anerobic bacteria are still developing the nitrates climb out of control. This is also why it takes so long for a marine tank to stabalize, even when it seems to cycle extremely fast.
 
Agreed.

If the goal is to create a Berlin-system tank -- i.e. one that is reliant on live rock and nutrient export, then biological or mechanical media such as ceramic rings have no place in the system. A predator tank is a different... um... kettle of fish altogether.

Not just talking from theory either... I found that when I removed all biological media from my canister filter, nitrate was much easier to control, and coral health in general was improved. The difference in algae was remarkable.
 
The reason they are nitrate factories is due to the fact that they are excellent filters. They can process so much amonia and nitrite that they create nitrate at a rate greater than the live rock can process it into nitrogen. Thus nitrate levels climb. For instance it takes a denitrate filter over six months to grow enough bacteria to be able to consume nitrate. It take a regular filter about a month to cycle and consume amonia and nitrite. The different bacterias grow and populate at a different rate and while the anerobic bacteria are still developing the nitrates climb out of control. This is also why it takes so long for a marine tank to stabalize, even when it seems to cycle extremely fast.
But the ceramic rings cannot create nitrate without there being ammonia to process, if the live rock is not processing the nitrate that quickly, and the nitrate is not reading, then surely it is not processing the ammonia or nitrite that the ceramic is using for this?

I'm not talking about a one month thing, say a tank has been set up for a year, why should the ceramic rings have no place? As stated above, they can only create nitrate out of ammonia and nitrite, if the LR isn't creating that nitrate, then it is not processing the ammonia/nitrite.
 
i have a canister filter full of substrat, you think i would take that out then? i do have a refugium on the tank tho with Caulerpa and cheato in it.

DG
 
Ok
mechanical filtration converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate period end of story

live rock converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen

mechanical filtration is very efficient and can easily out perform live rock in its duties, but it cannot convert nitrate to nitrogen. So you get increased nitrates

Live rock is very inefficient (although the use of powerheads and closed loops prviding many many times flow per gallon help this out) at filtration but is the only way to break nitrate to nitrogen.

Now live rock is cleaned by the cleaning crew so no ditrius builds up. mechanical filters trap particles of food, dead critters, solid waste all of which break down to ammonia. These can be broken down by the filter no problem but also help lead to increased nitrates.

Now anerobic bacteria (the ones that break down nitrate to nitrogen) populate and spread at 1/5th to 1/6th the rate of aerobic bacteria (the ones that break down ammonia and nitrite to nitrate). So your filtration will be able to break everything down to nitrate faster than it will be able to break nitrate down to nitrogen, thus leading to increased nitrates.

Now if you add all these reasons up nitrate levels in the tank will climb and that is why mechanical filtration is considered to be nitrate factories. Mechanical filtration adds nitrate to the tank it can't do anything else other than that by itself.

I hope this explains it all more clearly

I'm not tring to say mechanical filtration is worse than live rock or that it doesn't have its place, I am merely trying to explain why it is considered a nitrate factory.
 
I fully understand the nitrogen cycle, but short of some detritus trapped in the media (which would otherwise be trapped in Live Rock) the nitrate can only come from ammonia already present in the tank. The ceramic media does not create ammonia.

Now anerobic bacteria (the ones that break down nitrate to nitrogen) populate and spread at 1/5th to 1/6th the rate of aerobic bacteria (the ones that break down ammonia and nitrite to nitrate). So your filtration will be able to break everything down to nitrate faster than it will be able to break nitrate down to nitrogen, thus leading to increased nitrates.

This is my point, the ceramic is converting the ammonia down quicker, therefore stopping the ammonia or nitrite being present in the system. Surely this would be better? So long as you are prepared to maintain your media, the ceramics would allow for better filtration all round. Surely having higher nitrates is better than higher ammonia? Nitrates have been shown to only affect marine fish (no info on inverts) when levels are consistently higher than 100ppm. Ammonia can do it at less than 1ppm.

To make it easier, I shall break down the argument, imagine two identical tanks, identically stocked, one with lots of LR, the other identical but with ceramic media and you are finding nitrate readings in the ceramic one:

1) The tanks create ammonia;

2) This ammonia is converted by the ceramic media through nitrite into nitrate faster than the live rock can;

3) Therefore, one can fairly safely assume, that since the live rock tank is not registering nitrates it is not converting the ammonia quick enough for nitrates to show before it is processed by the anoxic bacteria
(more common to find anoxic than anaerobic bacteria doing this work) into nitrogen gas;

4) One can hypothesise from the above, that when LR alone is doing the filtering, the ammonia and nitrite are present for longer as both tanks are processing the ammonia at the same rate, but the tank with LR only never shows nitrate.

My original belief still stands, they only become nitrate factories when people stop maintaining them. Like the hundreds of people who heard that wet/dry filters are the best, installed them and never looked at them again. From there stems the belief, and from there on in it grows.

Based on this I think the above numbered points would most likely not happen; I feel both tanks would register 0 nitrates. It is only once someone stops maintaining the tank problems would occur. I just cannot see where the ceramic media would generate this extra ammonia to convert into nitrate that the Live Rock does not experience...

---
Edit

Mechanical filtration converts nothing, it purely removes waste from the water through mechanical rather than chemical or biological means (catching food in filter floss for example).

I believe you are confusing aerobic bacterial filtration for mechanical.
 
First I agree I am using "mechanical filtration" when I mean "mechanical media". And by mechanical media I mean anything other than live rock/live sand including filter floss, ceramic rings, bio balls, sponges, etc.

I also agree that the media does not create nitrates, I never said that and if I infered it I did not mean for anyone to draw that conclusion.

Here is my take on the two identical tanks and why I have come to believe the live rock is the better option.

1) the tanks create ammonia,
2)mechanical tank converts ammonia faster thus growing the bacteria in the filter as opposed to the live rock, the live rock tank grows bacteria totally in/ on the live rock. (Both tanks at this point are identical except in the fact of where the bacteria are growing and populating).
3)Neither tank experiences any ammonia or nitrite or they have not been propperly cycled.
4)the mechanical tank starts to accumulate ditrius in the media, the live rock tank has no detrius as the cleaning crew readily take care of this.
5)the mechanical tank needs its media cleaned to remove the detrius, slowing the maturing process and removing beneficial bacteria that will once again have to be grown and populated. The live rock tank is churning away nicely with no bacteria removed and no step backwards in the least.

Again I am not saying that mecanical media is bad or doesn't have any place in the hobby, It is just my opinion for the above that live rock works better and has less maintenece on most everyday systems. There is no getting around cleaning and replacing mechanical media. You never have to clean or replace live rock.
 
So you agree with my point that they are only nitrate factories if you do not maintain them? And someone who does not do maintenance on their tank will end up with far more than just nitrates to worry about.

And you make a mistake on the removal of the detritus, it will lose a small amount of bacteria, but an established colony will replace that very quickly. When cloning FW tanks you can take 25% of media out and not notice any spike (or at least, I didn't on the 6 times I did it).

I fully agree that Live Rock is a better all over filter media, but I hate this blanket belief that anything else is a nitrate factory when it just simply isn't true. People regurgitate that statement without ever thinking about what they are saying.
 
I agree if that mechanical media is only a problem if not maintained yes, but the removal of such media removes that maintenece from keeping the tank as well. Less maintenece is always a plus.

Also don't confuse the differnence between SW and FW. with FW the only way to remove nitrates is by water changes (unless its a planted tank - whole different ballgame). Thus mechanical media is a plus as it filters the best and doesn't add much in the way of maintenece. In FW the only other way is an UGF and that is even more maintence again (also why people switched from UGF to wet/drys in the marine realm).

The goal with a SW aquarium is maturity not just cycled, the more you have to mess with the filters the more time it takes for the tank to mature. Once a tank has matured properly you won't see any spikes of any kind unless something major goes wrong. A mature tank can take care of itself short of water changes or dosing to replace lost elements.
 

Most reactions

Back
Top