Bought a book on fish keeping

[appleblossom]

I was selling some of my old crap at a car boot sale today and had a quick wander round when I saw an 'aquarists guide to freshwater tropical fish'.

Having a skim through sitting in the boot of the car I came accross some odd, and from what I have read elsewhere, incorrect information, but the bit I was most shocked at came in the 'miscellanious fish' section.

They had an image of a figure 8 puffer labelled 'green puffer'
The book said "The pufferfish derives its name from the species ability to inflate to twice their size when startled. You can induce puffing by removing your fish from the water and gently stroking his belly. "

first of all - aargh telling people how to make their puffers puff so they will go home and try it

second - making it puff out of the water!

thirdly, holding it while you do so, if anything is going to make a puffer release toxins I'm sure thats as likely a time as any


Looking at the publishing date it was a 1982 edition of a 1971 book, I hope current publications are a little more fish friendly...

 

[SirMinion]

You can induce puffing by removing your fish from the water and gently stroking his belly.

Nooooooooooooo!

 

[Bomag]

i thought the things that made the toxins / and the fish posionous was in there natural diet and most of the fish i am sure do not get there natural diet in captivity there fore making the fish harmless


i only say THINK but the person that said this has a huge amount of experience in fishkeeping and writes for pfk fish mag i can get the quote from the mag for you non-belivers if you would like.

have NOT put this to have a arguement at all and will not get involved just thought some of you puffer keepers may have been interested to no.

like i said above no offence just what have heard

i can only try and offer information for others

hope it was of some use

 

[SirMinion]

i thought the things that made the toxins / and the fish posionous was in there natural diet and most of the fish i am sure do not get there natural diet in captivity

I have also read this.

In the AquaLog Freshwater/brackish Puffer book written by a very experienced puffer keeper.

Also, I think the toxins have to be ingested and willnot harm you by simply touching the fish (just don' suck your fingers afterwards. ewwww)

But puffing out of water is bad, bad bad. An easy way to harm or even kill your fish.

(imo you should not try to intentionally stress your fish to get it to puff anyway, but that's dealt with in another thread and let's not go there on here! )

 

[Bomag]

yeah my humpback puffer puffed up just before he died he was massive like a size four football

and i would totally agree that trying to make them puff would be very un healthly and stressful for the fish something i would never even think of trying

 

[Opcn]

theres nothing that tetrodonts could eat to give them that toxin. It is rather rare and I think it is the 2nd strongest poison in the world after botox.However stress does not cause them to produce it. it mearly fluctuates annually with the change of seasons.

 

[LadyMinion]

theres nothing that tetrodonts could eat to give them that toxin.

Sorry, but that is exactly how they get their poison.

The poison in marine puffers (tetradotoxin) is different from the poison found in fresh/brackish ones (saxitoxin). However, both are created from bacteria ingested with their natural food, which varies, as you mentioned, according to season.

In marines, the toxin is most commonly found in the internal organs as opposed to fresh/brackish where it is found predominantly in the skin.

 

[Opcn]

But if that is true (If it is I'd love to see an artical or paper on it) then its created throught a sybiotic relationship with the bacteria (lets face it they arent that common and there are plenty of fish that could eat what puffers do but not eat the puffers) and would be present in captive specimen. The symbiotic relationship with bacteria explains alot thought seeing as how tetradotoxin is found in very few organisms other than puffers and they are apperently all Bacterium. In my book manufacture through microscopic symbiosis still caounts as manufacture we say that lichens break down lrocks and produce sugars but its really algea produceing sugar and fungus breaking down rock. We also say that cows can digest fiber but its acctually bacteria that do it in a symbiotic relationship with the cow. Teach me more LM teach me more!

 

[LadyMinion]

Teach me more LM teach me more!

LOL! I'm no expert you know, only good at research.

Saxitoxin is a powerful neurotoxin produced by certain dinoflagellates (Alexandrium tamarense, Gymnodinium catenatum, and Pyrodinium bahamense) found in red tides; it can accumulate in mollusks that feed on the dinoflagellates and cause food poisoning to humans. Obviously, as shellfish are a natural staple of the puffer diet, it makes sense that they have developed an immunity to the toxin but seem to be the only species who have evolved to use it to their advantage.

Several species (various anthropods, amphibians, reptiles and fish to name a few) carry a protein which binds to the toxin, thus preventing it from causing harm.

Incidentally, saxitoxin and ricin are the only natural poisons listed as Schedule 1 chemical warfare agents.

Other marine organisms have been found to store Tetradotoxin (TTX) and include the Australian blue-ringed octopus (Hapaloclaena maculosa, uses TTX as a toxin for capturing prey), parrotfish, triggerfish, goby, angelfish, cod, boxfish (Ostracion spp.), tobies, porcupine fish, molas or ocean sunfish, globefish, seastars, starfish (Astropecten scoparius), xanthid crabs (Eriphia spp.), a horseshoe crab (Carcinoscorpius rotundicauda), two Philippine crabs (Zosimus aeneus and Atergatis floridus), a number of marine snails, flatworms, sea squirts, ribbonworms and arrowworms (which both use TTX as a venom for prey), molluscs (Nassarius spp. and the Japanese trumpet shell "Boshubora"), and marine algae (Jania spp.). Terrestrial organisms include the Harlequin frogs (Atelopus spp.), Costa Rican frog (Atelopus chiriquiensis), three species of California newt Taricha spp., and members of the Salamandridae (Salamanders). The number of species continues to grow

If you find this fascinating, there is a book titled "Tetrodotoxin, Saxitoxin, and the Molecular Biology of the Sodium Channel" which sounds good for a rainy day or a sleepless night.

 

[Opcn]

where Can I find that book? Thanks for the info but does this mean that the puffers in my tank are harmless?

 

[SirMinion]

but does this mean that the puffers in my tank are harmless?

Why? are you thinking of making some sushi?

 

[LadyMinion]

where Can I find that book? Thanks for the info but does this mean that the puffers in my tank are harmless?

It appears to be out of print, but you may be able to find it in your local library. The authors are C.Y. Kao and S.R. Levinson.

Alternatively, there is a rather fascinating article explaining how puffer toxicity works here.

I don't know if it is possible for puffers to become toxic in captivity, but I have never heard of anyone becoming ill from handling one.