Best Practices: Kh, Ph And Raising Them

[monkey_biz]

wow, never had anything above 8 personally, a few guys in the business work on pools on the south coast and they have problems with high ph occasionaly whith very high tds and calcium levels through the roof but ph 9 at that level you would have to strain your water through a peat filter

 

[waterdrop]

Well I actually have measured my tap water a few times (not all) when I've done a water change (you'll remember I did a number of those when my pH crashed to 6.0, before I started adding the bicarb.)

Its always between 7.4 and 7.6, my ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are all solid zero. Our water authority is like a university teaching lab for water people all over the state I think, so I gather there are little grad students trying to out-do each other to make it perfect.

Of course now that you guys have suggested it, I will probably find it hard not to add tap water tests to my already maniacal testing habits. "remember waterdrop?, Oh yeah, the one who did a thousand tests, wrote a thousand posts but never had fish I don't believe. Whatever happened to him?"

Lately I've been off combing the web re-reading those hundreds of fishless cycling articles. Kind of interesting how many of them talk about having an "inoculum", an original bacterial boosting source. I wonder how often the live plants serve as a good inoculum? Still, I have found several specific references to completely bare tanks with completely new equipment (like my own case) being cycled with nothing but ammonia, with the assumption that sufficient inoculums of AOBs and NOBs were present in the water and air. Water or air introduction, now there's another interesting question to think about, hmmm.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[monkey_biz]

i have to admit but im an old school fishkeeper. i started 25+ years ago when i was in my early teens and i still fish cycle. i seed the tank from another tank then i add 1 fish for the first week with lots of water changes with conditioned heated water then amother fish after a week as long as the water is ok then start adding more after a month. i always use hardy fish, right or wrong ive been doing it for over a quarter of a century and never lost anything yet and have always kept ammonia and nitrite down by sometimes twice daily water changes until im happy with the cycle. whatever way you choose and whatever chemicals/seeding you do you keep the same routine always and you are off to a good start with healthy fishkeeping. (most) live plants in the tank from day one will thrive on the waste chemicals of the cycle, think of them as an aid rather than a source of the cycle. after its cycled why not try fresh water mussles and clams as an alternative natural filter..... 200ltrs a day each one you add.
im about to build a self contained natural nano reef with no mmechanical filtration except one power head to simulate waves on the beach. once your hooked you are hooked

 

[waterdrop]

Well lol, monkey_biz, you are years ahead of me in this hobby!

One term that continues to elude me that you use frequently is the term "alkalinity." It may just be that I'm getting twisted up in the minute details that people put in wikipedia, but the subtleties of how this property (in water) differs from acidity and basicity and GH and KH just seems to slip past my grasp. Wikipedia seems to try to make it clear that alkalinity is somehow different.

If you or anyone can put any simplicity into the concept of alkalinity, it might help me. More likely it is just beyond the grasp of someone like me for whom many basic chemistry concepts were learned and forgotten too many years ago!

~~waterdrop~~

(I, if I'm representative of many who do not do water chem as a job, find it hard to build a good solid composite picture in my mind of how all these scales of differences fit together in the water. I have the protons vs. the OH groups going back and forth and being measured as pH; I have the TDS representing all the solids dissolved in the water perhaps measured by GH; I have the KH measuring the dissolved carbonates that are so common in the natural world because of all the clam shells; Alkalinity just seems so esoteric as somehow just a measure of "the ability of a solution to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate." (alkalinity must be useful, I just don't get *how* vs. KH vs. pH!))

 

[Colin_T]

(I, if I'm representative of many who do not do water chem as a job, find it hard to build a good solid composite picture in my mind of how all these scales of differences fit together in the water. I have the protons vs. the OH groups going back and forth and being measured as pH; I have the TDS representing all the solids dissolved in the water perhaps measured by GH; I have the KH measuring the dissolved carbonates that are so common in the natural world because of all the clam shells; Alkalinity just seems so esoteric as somehow just a measure of "the ability of a solution to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate." (alkalinity must be useful, I just don't get *how* vs. KH vs. pH!))

what the bloody hell does that all mean

 

[monkey_biz]

what im talking about is total alkalinity (or acidity if water is below ph 7)
ill try and make it understandable

ph is a measure of acidity/alkalinity of the water. ie ph 1-14, 7 being neither acid or alkali
total alkalinity is the ammount of alkalinity in the water or simply put the concentration. If the TA is too low, metals corrode, ornaments can stain, the water can turn green, and we can have pH bounce (pH rapidly going up and down, seemingly at random). If the TA is too high, the pH is difficult to adjust, the water becomes cloudy and the fish suffer especially the gills
total acidity is the concentration of the acid as above
ph and total alkalinity are 2 different measurements
you could have an acid of ph 1 but be of low concentration and harmless and you could have an acid of ph5 and take your skin off because its consentrated.

general hardness or GH simply is the amount of calcium carbonate in the water ie the hardness or softness of the water
carbonate hardness or KH simply is the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate ions in the water ie the buffering capability of the water in respect to acid/alkalinity ie the higher the amount the less the ph will change.
a good quote i found by googling it is
"When the aquarium has some carbonate buffering in it, the
bicarbonate ions will combine with the excess hydrogen ions to form
carbonic acid (H2CO3) which then slowly breaks down into CO2 and
water. Since the excess hydrogen ions are used in the reaction, the
pH does not change very much. Over time, as the carbonate ions are
used up, the buffering capacity will drop and larger pH changes will
be noted. From this it is clear why aquariums with low KH seem
unstable - as acid is produced by biological action, the KH is used
up; when it is gone, the pH is free to drop rapidly as H+ ions are
generated."

TDS..... my favourite is total dissolved solids it simply is an expression for the combined content of all inorganic and organic substances. the higher the TDS ie above 3000 affects all the above ie at TDS 3000 you will loose a huge percentage of the buffering ability, the GH swings one way then the other and the Ph will be all over the place and all your fish will swim upside down singing waltzing matilda

hope this helps, if you are still confused just say ill break it all down to the basics then once you have that ill add it all up and you will see the concequensies of unbalanced water. then after that someone could help me with my spelling as its awful

 

[monkey_biz]

add to the above, just remember mother nature does this everyday and naturaly adjusts it every day we polute our planet

 

[waterdrop]

Believe it or not I actually do understand most of items covered in your latest post monkey_biz. I also agree with you that the paragraph you found to quote is a good one and clear to understand!

Let me come at my latest question from a different angle:

What is the difference between Alkalinity and KH(Carbonate or "Temporary" Hardness)?

I don't mean to seem repeatedly stupid but the practical end of discussions of either of these two properties seems to come out the same (if they are low, pH is unstable; as they get higher, pH gets more stable.)

Perhaps could one be described as a subset of the other? (eg. Would carbonate hardness be just one of several things that contribute the alkalinity measure?)

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Colin that paragraph was written hoping to pull another paragraph from monkey and it did! If there is any chance you (or any of the other subset of members that cruise the scientific section here!) see this and could write your thought of what the difference is between "Alkalinity" and "KH" that would be great. One just never knows when the right sentence or quote will come that brings understanding or where it will come from - you know the feeling I'm sure...

 

[monkey_biz]

ive taken the followning from the net as im hungover from my wifes 40th birthday party and i feel i have a bit of a ph bounce problem inside my skull at the moment

ALKALINITY
In chemistry, an alkali is a basic, ionic salt of an alkali metal or alkaline earth metal element. Alkalis are best known for being bases (compounds with pH greater than 7) that dissolve in water. The adjective alkaline is commonly used in English as a synonym for base, especially for soluble bases. This broad use of the term is likely to have come about because alkalis were the first bases known to obey the Arrhenius definition of a base and are still among the more common bases. Since Brønsted-Lowry acid-base theory, the term alkali in chemistry is normally restricted to those salts containing alkali and alkaline earth metal elements.

CARBONATE HARDNESS
Carbonate hardness is the measure of Calcium and Magnesium and other hard ions associated with carbonate (CO32-) and bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions contained in a solution, usually water. It is usually expressed either as parts per million (ppm or mg/L), or in degrees (KH - from the German "Karbonathärte"). One German degree of carbonate hardness is equivalent to about 17.8575 mg/L. Both measurements (mg/L or KH) are usually expressed "as CaCO3" – meaning the amount of hardness expressed as if calcium carbonate was the sole source of hardness. Every bicarbonate ion only counts for half as much carbonate hardness as a carbonate ion does. If a solution contained 1 liter of water and 50 mg NaHCO3 (baking soda), it would have a carbonate hardness of about 18 mg/L as CaCO3. If you had a liter of water containing 50 mg of Na2CO3, it would have a carbonate hardness of about 29 mg/L as CaCO3.

end of quote

its basicaly the measurement of 2 different dissolved items within the water which effect the chemistry of the water, one regulates the hardness/softness of the water which will effect the ph scale the other the degree of saturation of alkali (or acid in acidic waters ie less than ph 7) within the water at the given ph range. ie bicarb at about ph 7.9 or chlorine at about ph 8.5 ect

so chlorinated tap water when treated with a dechlorinater will become more acidic ie the ph will drop, once its gone you will have your base ph, as you heat the water the ph will change again as the co2 level adjusts this will give you your tank base ph, the fish take a wizz in the water and the ph changes again as ammonia is produced, as the amonia is eaten by the bacteria the ph changes again and as the nitrate level rises the ph once again changes, do a water change and off you go again.... normal test kits wont show much of a change but i use a £2k pool photometer that goes to 3 decimal places and i can see it.... you will have to trust me

now............ a high degree of calcium in the water (very hard water)will also effect the total alkalinity as it can allow a greater concentration of alkali (of combined source) to be present and after that its beyond the fishkeeper as its not really relevent apart from a TDS reading (GH + KH + other organic/inorganic substances) that will be elevated and the only way to reduce it is by dilution of low TDS water
so what does that mean

do regular tested water changes! note results in a book and over a period you will see a patern in the results


dont go ott with information overload, as a general fishkeeper the minimum you should check for is:
1. PH
2. amonia
3. nitrite
4. nitrate
in most kits thats all you get and ALWAYS TEST AT THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY BEFORE FEEDING

why?

1. PH - this will give you the first indication something is wrong. dropping means acid is being produced, raising means alkali is being produced (remember co2 from plants will drop the ph and this is produced overnight so dont test first thing in morning)
2. amonia - overfeeding overstocking or filtration problem or you have just fed them
3. nitrite - overstocking under filtration or filtration problem
4. nitrate- is it time for a waterchange??? or zero are you over planted (see number one??? co2???) ?? not cycled?? see 2/3

GH and KH are lesser of a requirement for the average fishkeeper but if the above gives problems then that is the next step


remember what ive said all along keep it simple
crushed shell/coral in the filter
lots of water changes
and test 1-4 above and you cant go wrong


dont ya just love fishkeeping

im off for a lie down as my head hurts more now

 

[waterdrop]

Congrats monkey_biz! You finally left me fully satisfied that a question was answered! I feel your explanation of the difference between Alkalinity and Carbonate Hardness was really good that time and it makes even more sense now.

Also, simply putting the phrase "TDS reading (GH + KH + other organic/inorganic substances)" was good also, confirming the subset things that make up TDS.

For me, I think that about wraps up my little excursion into understanding what goes on when the aquarist sets out to raise KH and/or pH. I hope the thread has been hanging out here long enough that if other members had serious problems with what has been said, they would speak up.

Thanks monkey_biz and I hope your headache is long-gone by now!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[monkey_biz]

Congrats monkey_biz! You finally left me fully satisfied that a question was answered! I feel your explanation of the difference between Alkalinity and Carbonate Hardness was really good that time and it makes even more sense now.

Also, simply putting the phrase "TDS reading (GH + KH + other organic/inorganic substances)" was good also, confirming the subset things that make up TDS.

For me, I think that about wraps up my little excursion into understanding what goes on when the aquarist sets out to raise KH and/or pH. I hope the thread has been hanging out here long enough that if other members had serious problems with what has been said, they would speak up.

Thanks monkey_biz and I hope your headache is long-gone by now!

~~waterdrop~~

its a pleasure.

just to add, although ive been fishkeeping for a very long time and have ventured over the years into marine, nano tanks, home made mangrove sumps (nearly 15 years ago ) discus, oscars and hundreds more types. im an awful fish keeper (and i cant spell either). my choise of fish is whatever is cheap and cheerfull in the LFS. i get more out of perfect water conditions. my bare skin never enters the water (you add 50,000 bacteria every time you do) if i can ill waterchange a bit every day or two, i weigh my coral and clean out my filter every 7 days and prefer to use natural meathods for filtration if i can. all my fish are fed from the hand (gloved hand) and they all have names, any uneaten food if there is any is hoovered immediately and my readings are zero for the usual suspects and ample hardness.................
ph never alters by .05 from tank base

how sad am i

 

[CallMeJoe]

Since moving from the MidWest (KC) to the SouthEast (SC), I've been dealing with the soft water problem; my API hardness kit (unspecified,, which I now know I should chuck and get a kH/gH kit) measures <20ppm. I find it difficult even with weekly water changes to keep a reasonable pH in my tanks; I see a modest pH bounce with each change, then a decline to ~6 in short order. On the basis of previous research, I had decided to try the crushed coral in the filter remedy, and this thread has reinforced that decision. I thought about 1/2 cup of CC in my HOB to start (is that about right for a Hagen AC50 on a 55 gal?), but I still wonder how much water I can change weekly and keep a reasonably stable kH/gH/pH - will my current 25% weekly change keep me on a pH roller coaster?

BTW, my thanks to all the posters in this thread. Very informative.