Bacterial Additives...

[KISSfn]

I tried Tetra Safe Start. It did NOT do a thing. I added Dr. Tim's One and Only two days ago. The ad claims it starts working in 24 hours. So far I have seen NO results.

Are you doing a fishless cycle with it? How are you measuring your results?

Doing a fish in cycle. No drop in ammonia levels using API master test kit. Dr. Tim's falsely claims ammonia levels of no more than 0.5mg/l for 2 days then 0 after that, LIES!

 

[waterdrop]

I prefer not to get so excited about it. What we hope for is to see a few cases that seem to work and to learn from them. We already have years of disappointments where the report is the BB doesn't work, that's the majority tally in my rough estimate just watching the threads.

The science is there such that there should be a reasonable chance of the BBs working and maybe the scientists just need more time to try their things. I'm still quite grateful for all the published work of Tim and the good discussions he's had in the past on various boards but I don't know whether anyone has really figured out how to make the whole picture work. I don't think it's a matter of getting the correct species, I think he's got that part. I think there is just some problem with "establishment" of the bacteria from when it comes out of the bottle to when it is fixed in it's biofilms on the filter media. At least that might be part of where the problem is, I don't know.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I prefer not to get so excited about it. What we hope for is to see a few cases that seem to work and to learn from them. We already have years of disappointments where the report is the BB doesn't work, that's the majority tally in my rough estimate just watching the threads.

The science is there such that there should be a reasonable chance of the BBs working and maybe the scientists just need more time to try their things. I'm still quite grateful for all the published work of Tim and the good discussions he's had in the past on various boards but I don't know whether anyone has really figured out how to make the whole picture work. I don't think it's a matter of getting the correct species, I think he's got that part. I think there is just some problem with "establishment" of the bacteria from when it comes out of the bottle to when it is fixed in it's biofilms on the filter media. At least that might be part of where the problem is, I don't know.

~~waterdrop~~

Insightful responses, as I was anticipating, waterdrop. You confirmed my suspicions regarding these products. People don't use these products with a fishless cycle to CONFIRM that the bacteria are truly being established in the filter media. All these products are marketed towards the impulse aquarium buyer who walks into a store, buys the tank, substrate, dechlorinator, fish and then wants to make it work, so on the advice of the LFS, buys the product in question and hopes for the best.

I haven't seen anything to convince me that one (or more) of these products can't actually be effective at REDUCING the time of the fishless cycle. I am convinced that the fishless cycle is the best way to ensure success with my aquarium long-term, but I don't like the prospects of a 70 day cycle. If I could shorten it to 3 or 4 weeks, then I would consider that a success. I have yet to see a single fishless cycle log here, or elsewhere, that didn't take at least 4 weeks and usually took MUCH longer, up to 10 weeks or more. So, I am now planning to be a guinea pig for these products and cycling.



I have a science background (but not biology), which is why I was so interested in these additives. After all, if the bacteria that are needed have been identified, AND we KNOW that seeding with mature media works, then surely we have been able to harvest those bacteria and somehow put them on the market for purchase. Your comments on the biofilm are interesting, and it is conceivable that the lack of biofilm in these additives actually could make the time for it to "take" a little longer than the marketing people claim, but still less than starting from scratch.

I guess the next question for me to determine the answer to is WHICH of these products will I try in an effort to cut the duration of the fishless cycle down significantly? Currently I am leaning towards Turbo Start, as it is the ONLY one of the products that still requires refrigeration (granted the shipping costs will be higher, but at least I will have a better sense of whether or not the bacteria are still going to be viable). I could also put a drop of the stuff under the microscope when it arrives in an effort to look for viable bacteria. The next question is dosing. Do I follow the directions on the dosing, or do I double it in an effort to get a better "take"? Do I dose it according to their directions, but do it for consecutive days in an attempt for a better 'take" or do I do it as a single dose, and take my chances? I am leaning towards either a double dose, or a dose every day until either the ammonia drops or the bottle runs out!


The issue with Turbo Start is that it uses Nitrobacter, not Nitrospira as the N-bacs. BUT, if they both do the job... then what's the difference? Could the nitrobacter start and then give way to the nitrospira? OR would the nitrobacter just be the dominant species in this particular tank?



I am still looking for any other anecdotal evidence of success or miserable failures, specifically with fishLESS cycling. Any suggestions on how I could go about setting up this "experiment" are welcomed as well. I am interested in offering something to the wealth of knowledge of this board, and if this is my little contribution, then so be it. If my contribution is to verify the skeptics right, then that is something. If my contribution is to show that they can significantly decrease the cycling time, then so much the better.

 

[Gelt]

looking forward to you results Eagle!

When i cycle another tank i will make sure i use BB to do a study, i will also use a different product so we can have comparision.

The issue for me is that at one time the Bacteria must have been proven i.e when manufactured during some quality control process, there are too many variables from bottled product at the factory to the store shelf, already identifed is probable lack of refrigeration or is it a case that the Bateria is in a state of hibernation just waiting for the magic ingredients and environment present in a tank? or has the BB been suplemented with source of food actually in the bottle to keep it alive?, i know the BB has an expiry date but does this mean that is when the bacteria is deemed usless or dead?

What is needed is about five members to fishless cycle from scratch , new media with each using different 'Branded' cycle aids.

um i smell an experiment , but who 'will be King of the Lab!'

Gelt.

 

[OldMan47]

I have used the Cycle product and found that it got me nothing. After I got home and had access to a mature filter to start a clone, I had a functioning filter inside of a week using the fish-in approach. I did things fish-in because I cycled the filter after I had brought the fish home. After priming the new filter by cleaning an old filter in their tank, I did daily 90% water changes until the new filter had proven itself. One of these days I may actually have so much space that I can run a side by side fishless cycle on enough tanks to get statistical relevance but my own experience with Cycle tells me it is a waste of money to buy it.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have used the Cycle product and found that it got me nothing. After I got home and had access to a mature filter to start a clone, I had a functioning filter inside of a week using the fish-in approach. I did things fish-in because I cycled the filter after I had brought the fish home. After priming the new filter by cleaning an old filter in their tank, I did daily 90% water changes until the new filter had proven itself. One of these days I may actually have so much space that I can run a side by side fishless cycle on enough tanks to get statistical relevance but my own experience with Cycle tells me it is a waste of money to buy it.

The three products I mentioned above claim to have the proper bacteria, require refrigeration (or did until recently, but also claim that refrigeration extends the life of the product), and/or were developed by the scientist that was instrumental in determining the bacterial species. Cycle doesn't fit those criteria, as there is no special mention of methods to improve shelf-life and/or get it to the consumer in proper working order (live bacteria!). It makes no claims about how it should be stored or shipped, and yet it claims a shelf-life of THREE YEARS! Turbo Start must be shipped and stored under refrigeration (not freezing). Safe Start recommends 2 day air shipping during periods of extreme heat or cold. Finally, One and Only states that shelf life can be extended with refrigeration of the product. Unlike these three I mentioned in the first post, Cycle makes no such statements. That's great for marketing, because it needs no special care, but apparently bad for effectiveness - as it can lead to careless treatment of the product and potentially kill any bacteria that might be present. Therefore, based on these reasons, I believe the only viable candidates are Turbo Start from Fritz pets, Safe Start (formerly Biospira) from Tetra, and One & Only from Dr. Tim's.


If anyone can make a strong case for another product, I'd be glad to hear it. (But, I agree with your assessment of Cycle. It probably is a waste of money, and it might not be the product itself that is the problem, as people have claimed to have had success with it. The issue though is that some bottles are probably not treated appropriately, making the product as effective as a mature filter that has been permitted to dry out for an extended period.

 

[BIG BAD BARRY]

The first tank we were given with a fish in cycled filter.
Knew nothing about cycling or fishkeeping at the time and LFS recommended the below stuff. Was added to the tank every 2 weeks after water changes.
When i aquired some knowledge i ditched them.

http/www.microbelift.com/products/home-aquarium/mini-kits/immediate-water-cycling-kit/

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The first tank we were given with a fish in cycled filter.
Knew nothing about cycling or fishkeeping at the time and LFS recommended the below stuff. Was added to the tank every 2 weeks after water changes.
When i aquired some knowledge i ditched them.

http/www.microbelift.com/products/home-aquarium/mini-kits/immediate-water-cycling-kit/

I've never heard of that. Is it a UK or US product?


In other news, my brother is currently breeding ADFs like crazy (not on purpose, it just happened. In fact, he didn't even want the frogs in the first place, but his son got them from school. He's taken quite a liking to them now though!) He has 2F, 1M and they breed every time he does a water change (he does 100% - weekly). Ironically, he is doing this with NO FILTER! He has a small plant - not sure the type - in a 3 gallon tank with the frogs. He has gotten 11 tadpoles up to about 4 weeks old, plus he has more coming. Just today 4 or 5 more hatched. He would have more than that, but the frogs eat the eggs sometimes before he can scoop them out, and sometimes the bigger tadpoles eat the smaller ones, so he is looking to expand his tadpole tanks. Currently he has a 1.5 gallon bowl holding the tadpoles. He is getting a new 3 gallon tank soon for the older tadpoles, and then will move the newest tadpoles into the bowl that holds the older tadpoles now.


Anyway, the reason I bring this up, is that he is looking to expand this a little more including a 10 gallon tank that my dad used about 15-20 years ago. I am trying to educate him about the nitrogen cycle, etc. And I am close to getting him to give me the 10 gallon tank to cycle it for him. (He will be purchasing the filter, media, etc.) But, I was thinking that this would be the perfect opportunity to put one of these products to the test. I have NO mature media available, at all. So this means a fresh start. I believe that I am going to go with "Safe Start", since I can find it easiest, even though I don't believe this is the best option. I'll see my brother tonight, and let everyone know how this all goes.


I think it will need to wait a week, since I am going to be ordering the testing kit from fostersandsmith (free shipping for orders over $49, the filter I am planning to get for my big tank is also on sale with them PLUS A REBATE, not to mention that the API kit is about $17, as opposed to the $32 I've seen everywhere else!) I love splurging and saving money at the same time! And the best part is that I can finally start doing something with a fish tank, before September! I'll get it cycled, and then hand it over to my brother! Then he can use it for his frogs, plus he plans to get a few fish, as well. He's hoping to raise the tadpoles, to trade in at his LFS. This would give him store credit for his other supply needs. He's pretty excited.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well folks, the experiment will begin as soon as my order from Foster and Smith Aquatics shows up.

I will have an old 10 gallon tank - hasn't been used for about 15 years or so. I plan to scrub it, inside and out with the ammonia cleaner I just picked up at Ace Hardware, and the cleaner will be the same stuff that I will be using to dose the tank.

Next, I will be using a Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter 7 (this is rated up to 50 gallons) - a bit of overkill for my tank, I know, but this is in preparation for the 56 gallon tank I will be getting later this year. I figure cycling this 10 gallon will take a while, but if I can get a working sponge filter, then cycling the bigger tank should be much easier, faster, etc.

I ordered a Fluval M Submersible Heater 200W - rated up to 60 gallons. Again, I recognize that this is overkill for the 10 gallon tank, but it was the same price as a 50W. I don't think that there should be big problem with that. If there is let me know, and I can get a smaller heater for the tank. I will need the bigger heater for the larger tank.

Finally, I have a bottle of SafeStart ordered as well - $10. I plan to just soak the sponge filter in the solution before I put it into the tank. Then I will dose the tank with the remainder of the solution. Then, I will add the appropriate level of ammonia and keep a log for everyone to see the results.

As part of this process, in order to get the quickest possible cycle time, I plan to set the temp of the tank to the optimum level for the bacteria (~84 degrees F). I also will be adjusting the pH to match an optimum level for the bacteria (~8.0).


If anyone has any suggestions on other steps to take during the cycling process, please let me know. I should be starting this process in the next week or so. I'm just waiting on my heater, test kit and filter!

 

[waterdrop]

All sounds fine for a decent addition to our cases where BB was used. Remember, plain fishless cycles with no BB or MM still vary wildly in their length, ending between 3 and 9 weeks generally, so determining in any one fishless cycle whether the BB speeded things up is more or less impossible but the more times people at least do a thread with some data it helps us. Hopefully you plan to post your daily log with Day X, Temp, NH3, NO2, pH, NO3 (when needed), water clarity, other observations, dosing info, 12 vs. 24 Hr test when the time comes later in the process etc. Thanks for your interest.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

All sounds fine for a decent addition to our cases where BB was used. Remember, plain fishless cycles with no BB or MM still vary wildly in their length, ending between 3 and 9 weeks generally, so determining in any one fishless cycle whether the BB speeded things up is more or less impossible but the more times people at least do a thread with some data it helps us. Hopefully you plan to post your daily log with Day X, Temp, NH3, NO2, pH, NO3 (when needed), water clarity, other observations, dosing info, 12 vs. 24 Hr test when the time comes later in the process etc. Thanks for your interest.

~~waterdrop~~

Of course...

 

[anon02]

Just a couple of comments, I`m assuming you`ll check that the ammonia source has no detergent, scent or dyes etc
I`m not familiar with the cycling product you`ll be testing, but if it`s one that you need to add fish immediately I suggest following the manufacturers` instructions for application to make the test realistic then in place of fish add a dose of only about 0.5ppm ammonia daily to mimic a reasonably stocked tank

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Just a couple of comments, I`m assuming you`ll check that the ammonia source has no detergent, scent or dyes etc
I`m not familiar with the cycling product you`ll be testing, but if it`s one that you need to add fish immediately I suggest following the manufacturers` instructions for application to make the test realistic then in place of fish add a dose of only about 0.5ppm ammonia daily to mimic a reasonably stocked tank

Yes, there is no detergent in the product. It is the ACE Hardware Janitorial Strength product.


I was going to do a regular fishless cycle with it at 5 ppm, and see if the levels drop off faster than a regular fishless cycle. In theory, it should drop rather quickly, and there shouldn't be a significant nitrite spike with it, as theoretically, the A-bacs should make some nitrite quickly, and the N-bacs would then have something to munch on.


The 0.5 ppm plan makes sense too, now I am conflicted. Any other opinions... I have about a week before the stuff arrives, so any input would be helpful in determining the best way to test this product would be greatly appreciated.


Incidentally, the product I am using is the new name of the product formerly as "Biospira", currently "Safe Start" by Tetra.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

double post.

 

[waterdrop]

Just a couple of comments, I`m assuming you`ll check that the ammonia source has no detergent, scent or dyes etc
I`m not familiar with the cycling product you`ll be testing, but if it`s one that you need to add fish immediately I suggest following the manufacturers` instructions for application to make the test realistic then in place of fish add a dose of only about 0.5ppm ammonia daily to mimic a reasonably stocked tank

I disagree. This is the very problem we were discussing. If the bottled bacteria is really viable and able to make the transition to forming working biofilms and eventually a working biofilter then it should be able to shorten our standard fishless cycling technique on a regular basis for a lot of cases. This is what I'd really like to see more cases of. This is exactly how we lose out on getting these data points.

WD