At A Loss, Any Advice Appreciated..

[mg2]

The ich cleared up completely, which is why when I did the big water change I went ahead and put the filter back in. But according to what I'm gathering from the_lock_man, was I not supposed to put the filter back in?? I was just going by the instructions on the bottle of ich meds.

The cloudy eye issue has somehow cleared up over night. I don't know what happened and I am positive it was there last night before we all went to bed. Three of us saw it too, so it wasn't a fluke. Could the ammonia being gone from the tank drastically have helped the fish essentially "get healthy" before it got too bad? (Did that make sense?)

All 6 are alive and swimming about. Even the one with the stringy poo is more active than before (not as much as she used to be, but a lot better for sure).

I checked my levels this morning: pH was at 7.0 and Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia were all at 0. I might be being overcautious, but I was going to test the water again tonight before going to bed. Thought maybe a twice a day checking might be good until I know everything is leveling out.

Yes, I did rinse it tap water. My mistake! The fish store guy kept telling me over and over again to be sure to "rinse the filter." He must have said it at least half a dozen times so I thought it must be very important. He was definitely not clear about NOT rinsing it in tap water and I did not even think to ask. I should have--I just had no idea that rinsing it in the tank water is what might have been meant. My fault completely.

Question about the internal parasite: so from what I'm gathering, any generic internal parasite medication will work? I don't need to get one specifically for whichever one has invaded my fish? And, again I know I'm being too detailed but, I will need to take the filter out during treatment right? So won't I be taking out the bacteria you mentioned in the last post? That I'd need to keep my levels looking good? Just trying to wrap my brain around how this works. And trying desperately not to fall into the same mistake as last time!


And about the filter: you mentioned not putting it in but getting a sponge of floss--silly question, but what do you mean by that? We are in different countries so I want to be sure. When I think of a sponge, I think of something I wash dishes with--is this what you mean? And floss--I don't know what that is, when I think of floss I think of a string-type material used for dental hygiene. I'm sorry, I just want to get the proper things. And since I did put the filter back in, should I take it out now? I have not gotten the parasite meds yet as I'm not sure which to get (and I'm losing faith in the fish store people to help). If you say a generic one will help my fish even though we don't know which parasite it is, I'll go get one on your advice (as I definitely trust you all).





 
 

 

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Do you know what type of media is in your filter? 
Sorry if you have mentioned this before, but what brand and type is your filter?
 
Sponge...

 
This is just one of the types, there are many more out there.
Floss......

 
Filter wool and floss are the same thing, different brands just call it different things
 
To my knowledge, generic internal parasite medication will work for you, I may be wrong though so I'll wait for someone else to confirm that.
 
If putting the filter back in was what the medication instructed to do, then I would say that was the right move.
 
Yes, unfortunately rinsing the media in tap water was the wrong thing to do, but we all make mistakes to don't worry about it. The important thing to do now is just make sure that you can keep your filter bacteria alive and multiplying.
 
Good to hear that the cloudy eye has cleared up, I would say that the clean water did play a big role in it clearing up so fast. Let's just hope it doesn't come back again!

 

[the_lock_man]

It's amazing the difference good clean water can make.
 
THe reason I was asking about throwing away filter media or rinsing it in tapwater is that I'm trying to explain why you suddenly had problems. Obviously, in your tapwater, there is chlorine. In a mature tank, the beneficial bacteria are protected by a biofilm, which stops them being killed by brief exposure to chlorine. However, immature bacteria don't have that protection, and this fits in with your experience.
 
It seems you are now back to square one, and need to regrow your bacteria.
 
 

 
The ich cleared up completely, which is why when I did the big water change I went ahead and put the filter back in. But according to what I'm gathering from the_lock_man, was I not supposed to put the filter back in?? I was just going by the instructions on the bottle of ich meds.
 

 
It hasn't done any harm to put the carbon filter back in, it's just not doing any good either.
 
Let me explain what the carbon filter does. It is there, basically, to remove heavy metal pollutants (eg copper) from the water. After a period of time, some say as little as two weeks, its capacity to remove those pollutants is exhausted. Hence why the manufacturers tell you to replace it every 4-6 weeks.
 
Here comes the "however".
 
However, most decent water conditioners, and some not-so-good ones, also remove heavy metal pollutants from the water, before it gets anywhere near your tank and fish. So, to my mind, there is no point having a filter component that does that job, because there aren't going to be any heavy metals in the tank anyway. This is why I don't use a carbon filter.
 
Most ich medicines use copper as the main active ingredient. The instructions tell you to remove the carbon filter, otherwise the will remove the copper from the water before it's had a chance to kill the ich. They then tell you to put it back in, once the ich has been killed, so that the copper (which is a pollutant, and therefore also harmful to the fish) can be removed from the water.
 
In your particular instance, you will be doing daily water changes for some time, and this will also remove the copper without the need for a carbon filter.
 
However, I do keep a spare carbon filter in my cuboard, and I recommend that you do the same, for that time in the future when I need to remove a medication from my tank water. Once I have used it for that purpose, I will throw it away, and buy a new one.

 

[daizeUK]

My levels as of tonight:
pH: 7.6
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: somewhere between 0 and.25 (just a hint of a change depending on how the light hits it). At least this is a lot better than where I was earlier today (at 1)

 
I don't trust these nitrite and nitrate readings one little bit.  If you ammonia has been going up and down then your nitrite and nitrate should have shown a positive too.
I would suspect that either your test kits are faulty or your readings are actually so high that they're off the scale.  For peace of mind, can you take a sample of tank water and dilute it 1:9 with tap water and then test that sample?

 

[mg2]

Alright, so an update on the tank first:
The one that was not looking so well died. Perhaps she was too far gone already to recover?
The levels as of this morning-pH: 7.2, Nitrate: 0, Nitrite: 0, Ammonia: 0

Now my questions:
1. Shouldn't something be going up somewhere? I mean, should all the levels be staying at 0?
2. You mentioned that I needed to do water changes until my ammonia was at 0...and you also mentioned in the last post that I was back to "square one." So does this mean I stop the water changes?? (Other than the regular weekly ones of course.)
3. You didn't mention anything about the internal parasite (though others did and I am thankful)--do you have any thoughts on that?
4. As far as the filter goes: if it won't hurt anything, can I just leave it in instead of getting the sponge/floss? And change it out like I'm supposed to (4-6 weeks)?
5. I have not gotten the parasite meds yet but can today. But the one that I was worried about died, didn't look bloated/skinny or anything--is it still necessary? I only ask because then I'll be back at water changes (after the course of the meds) and everything just now seems to be leveling out.

I think that's it for now. And yes I can do the dilution and retest but my ammonia isn't going up at all, do you still want me to do it? It was high before the water change. After the change it's been at 0, aside from that one time my the light was hitting it weird but it was confirmed it was still 0 (different room/multiple people looked at it).



 

 

[daizeUK]

The reason I suspected a false nitrite reading was because you've said that your ammonia was rising and falling.  If your ammonia has fallen on its own (i.e. not because of a water change or any treatments you've added to remove ammonia) then I would expect you to have seen a corresponding nitrite reading.  If you think that your ammonia has shown signs of falling on its own then I would do a diluted test for nitrite, otherwise don't bother as it won't have reached that stage yet.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

The reason I suspected a false nitrite reading was because you've said that your ammonia was rising and falling.  If your ammonia has fallen on its own (i.e. not because of a water change or any treatments you've added to remove ammonia) then I would expect you to have seen a corresponding nitrite reading.  If you think that your ammonia has shown signs of falling on its own then I would do a diluted test for nitrite, otherwise don't bother as it won't have reached that stage yet.

 
I may be wrong, but I think the ammonia was only falling because of the water changes?
That's what I gathered from the OPs posts.
 
OP- The reason why we're telling you to remove the carbon, is because carbon isn't very good at containing the bacteria, ceramic rings/sponges are much better.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Alright, so an update on the tank first:
The one that was not looking so well died. Perhaps she was too far gone already to recover?
The levels as of this morning-pH: 7.2, Nitrate: 0, Nitrite: 0, Ammonia: 0

Now my questions:
1. Shouldn't something be going up somewhere? I mean, should all the levels be staying at 0?
2. You mentioned that I needed to do water changes until my ammonia was at 0...and you also mentioned in the last post that I was back to "square one." So does this mean I stop the water changes?? (Other than the regular weekly ones of course.)
3. You didn't mention anything about the internal parasite (though others did and I am thankful)--do you have any thoughts on that?
4. As far as the filter goes: if it won't hurt anything, can I just leave it in instead of getting the sponge/floss? And change it out like I'm supposed to (4-6 weeks)?
5. I have not gotten the parasite meds yet but can today. But the one that I was worried about died, didn't look bloated/skinny or anything--is it still necessary? I only ask because then I'll be back at water changes (after the course of the meds) and everything just now seems to be leveling out.

I think that's it for now. And yes I can do the dilution and retest but my ammonia isn't going up at all, do you still want me to do it? It was high before the water change. After the change it's been at 0, aside from that one time my the light was hitting it weird but it was confirmed it was still 0 (different room/multiple people looked at it).



 

 
Sorry to hear that.
 
Your nitrite and then nitrate will eventually go up, but for now, we want them staying low, which the water changes are doing.
 
The water changes are keeping your ammonia in the lower numbers, which is what we want, as prolonged exposure of high ammonia (and nitrite) will cause long term health problems. So, therefore, you want to keep doing your water changes. 
The thing about doing all the water changes, is although we want the levels low so your fish aren't poisoned, but we also want there to be some ammonia and nitrite so then the filter bacteria will have enough to feed on to multiply. I think Daize said it before, but with your pH, you can't let your ammonia levels get too high, around 0.5ppm would be the maximum.
 
I'd hold off on the medication, until you see any signs. It might be good to have some in the cupboard though, so then if you see any signs, you can treat them straight away.

 

[mg2]

Thank you all so much for your help and kindness (and actual willingness to help and not talk down to me). As a side, I posted the same original plea for help on 2 sites (this one and another one) and you all have not only ben very attentive and quick to respond (which the other board's members have not been) but the one person that responded to me on the other board seemed very pompous and demeaning. This has quickly become my only source of hope in this whole mess. (I'm deleting my account on the other site and giving this one and it's people my undivided attention!)

Now to business: I'm unsure what my levels are supposed to be. I need nitrate and nitrite readings to move up right? Not too far up, but up--correct? And if so, what is ideal? What are we shooting for here? I get ammonia needs to always be at 0--that's the goal. But I'm not sure about the rest. And is it bad that they aren't moving up at all? The only thing increasing right now is the ammonia.
Speaking of, the readings for tonight-pH is at 7.2, nitrate and nitrite are both at 0, and ammonia is up from 0 this morning to .25 tonight.
I will do a water change and let you know the results.

 

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Thank you all so much for your help and kindness (and actual willingness to help and not talk down to me). As a side, I posted the same original plea for help on 2 sites (this one and another one) and you all have not only ben very attentive and quick to respond (which the other board's members have not been) but the one person that responded to me on the other board seemed very pompous and demeaning. This has quickly become my only source of hope in this whole mess. (I'm deleting my account on the other site and giving this one and it's people my undivided attention!)

Now to business: I'm unsure what my levels are supposed to be. I need nitrate and nitrite readings to move up right? Not too far up, but up--correct? And if so, what is ideal? What are we shooting for here? I get ammonia needs to always be at 0--that's the goal. But I'm not sure about the rest. And is it bad that they aren't moving up at all? The only thing increasing right now is the ammonia.
Speaking of, the readings for tonight-pH is at 7.2, nitrate and nitrite are both at 0, and ammonia is up from 0 this morning to .25 tonight.
I will do a water change and let you know the results.

 

 
On behalf of the others, you're welcome, its what we're here for
 
I too find that this forum is better, I'm part of another forum that I almost never go on, since this forum has almost all of the information I need, most of the time.
 
You are correct, however, you need some ammonia for the bacteria, otherwise you will be doing water changes for months until your tank is cycled, 0.5ppm would be about the maximum I would personally let it get to.
For nitrite, you can let it be a little higher, since nitrite is more harmful in acidic pH levels, and yours is just above neutral, therefore, you can let it get higher, 1.0ppm would be the highest I would let it get.
Ammonia is being processed when you start to see nitrite rise.
 
One important tip that I have learned with fish in cycling, is to know the signs of ammonia/nitrite poisoning.
When a fish is lethargic and breathing heavily, it is most likely caused by ammonia.
When a fish is at the surface, seemingly gasping for air, it is most likely cause by nitrite.
Knowing these signs, along with testing, will help you determine when to do a water change, though, if you are doing it correctly, you will never see these signs, because you will be doing water changes before it gets to that stage. It is still handy to know these signs though, incase for some reason, you can't be testing.
 
I think it has been mentioned before, but if you can your hands on some of Tetra's Safe Start, Dr. Tim's One and Only or some mature filter media, then your cycle will be a lot smoother.
 
If you would like, I can send a PM to TwoTankAmin notifying him of this thread, so then he can elaborate some more on fish in cycling (he's the one that wrote our most recent cycling article - the one found in my sig).

 

[mg2]

Okay, I think I'm beginning to get it...I think.

 
I had a family emergency last night and was not able to get to my water change until today. I did put some Prime in there before I left (last night) though, so hopefully that helped?

Today's numbers before the water change were as follows-pH: 7.2, Ammonia: 1.0, Nitrate: 0, Nitrite: 0

So I did what looks like it would be 50%. I'm sorry, I'm doing it more on gallons so I can get the chemicals right than I am by percentages plus, I'm not entirely sure exactly how many gallons my 29 gallon tank holds with gravel, etc....instead of trying to do all the calculations, I decided going with how many gallons I take out would make things a lot easier. So, all that to say---eyeballing it, it was right at 50%.

Everyone seems fine for now, but as soon as the water change was done one of the fish seemed to lose it for a minute. She darted about like I've never seen her (or any of them) do, then she slowed to (what looked like a panicked) stop in a corner. She wasn't breathing heavy but her little fins were moving pretty fast. She's fine now, socializing, etc...just not sure what happened to her for a few minutes there.

Yes, please feel free to send a PM to TwoTankAdmin. I'll take all the help/info I can get!

Unsure who asked about my "filter media"--I'm not sure what this means. I have a carbon filter and a sponge--it's a Top Fin Power Filter (I can send a link if you need to see what it is).

So are you saying that if I continue to do the water changes to get the ammonia out, the tank will never "cycle" properly? And if the ammonia is less than .5, I should just leave it?
Also, those symptoms you mentioned--before all of this happened, they were doing both. Some were up top gasping and others were lethargic--can you have both types of poisonings going on at once? And if it was nitrite poisoning would there be a reason it wasn't showing up in the readings? I will say this, it was showing up in the water right before I did the massive water change a few days ago. But now, nothing.


 

 

[mg2]

Quick question: about how long should it take for everything to level out? I'm doing a water change everyday to every other day due to ammonia levels.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Sorry I didn't reply before, I missed your post.
 
TwoTankAmin wasn't able to post but I was talking to him in chat about your problem, and he thinks that, with your pH, you would be able to safely let your ammonia to rise up to 1.0ppm.
 
What chemicals are you adding currently?
 
Do you temperature match your water, before adding it to your tank?
If you don't, that may be the reason why your fish darted about, either that or it probably got a fright.
 
Filter media just means the stuff inside your filter.
TBH, your carbon isn't doing much at the moment, you would be better off replacing it with some ceramic rings, which gives more room for your beneficial bacteria to live.
 
The tank will eventually cycle, but it just takes a lot longer, and is much more work. 
When the ammonia is less than 1.0ppm, just leave it, and wait until it is, before doing a 50-70% water change.
It is possible for both poisonings to occur, though it could just be how the different fish express the symptoms.
 
As said in previous posts, some filter media from an established tank will go a long way to helping you and your fish with the cycle. If you can get your hands on some, definitely do!
 
The amount of time for a cycle varies between people, the reason is that the bacteria that live in our filters and break down the ammonia and nitrite, they enter our tanks by the water, the amount of bacteria in the water varies between water companies.
It is just a waiting game to find out when the tank will finish cycling.

 

[mg2]

Thanks for replying!
And I appreciate you talking to TwoTankAmin about my issues.

I'm feeling a little uneasy about the ammonia getting that high as that's the sole reason everyone has said was why I ran into the issues with my fish getting sick/dying in the first place. It's not that I don't trust you all--I know you know a lot more about this than I do, I'm just really scared/uneasy about purposely allowing that situation to arise again. Make sense?

I'm also not sure where to get filter media from an established tank. I honestly don't know anyone else that has a tank anymore. I'll put in some phone calls tomorrow (to some stores) to see if they can help me (either provide it for my to buy or give me an idea of where to get it). Do you essentially mean like a filter from an established tank? I'll also look into ceramic rings. I have no idea what that is, but I'll do some searches online tonight.

You're not kidding about the amount of work! I had no idea!

As far as temp matching the water: I try to get it close before putting it in. I don't have a separate heater or anything, but I don't feel right putting in really cold water either so I do my best to match it (at least by touch).

As far as chemicals I'm adding: every time I do any kind of water change, I'll add the appropriate amounts of: Stress Coat, Stress Zyme, Seachem Prime, Seachem Neutral Regulator, and aquarium salt. All the things I was told to use at every change. Should I be using something else? Or is there something else that would make this process go quicker? Or should I not be using something that I currently am?

As stated, my pH stays at around 7.0 and nitrate and nitrite have been at 0 for days. Ammonia goes up to .25 in about 2 days after doing a 50% change (that's what it is today)..normally I'll leave it at .25, but if it hits .5 I do a change. A few days ago it got up to .5 and I only did a 25% change but it didn't really bring it down that much so I ended up doing a 50% the next day.

Thanks for all your help. The remaining 5 fish seem to be doing really well so I don't want to screw things up again.


 

 

[mg2]

PLEASE HELP!!

Everything was going along fine until this morning. I woke up to find one of the mollies that was going strong yesterday was stuck to the intake tube of the filter. She's still alive, I unstuck her and she floated about for a second, started swimming erratically, and then sunk to the bottom to rest on the floor of the tank. But she is breathing. What on earth happened over night??? I tested all my levels right before going to bed: pH was 7.0, ammonia was .25, nitrates and nitrites were at 0. The plan was to do a water change today since everyone keeps saying let it be if the ammonia is under .5. What happened??