Ask Questions About Cycling

[Moon-xo]

Alright... Hello Everyone!! 

 
This is my first post on Fish Forums.
This is also my first time ever owning a fish tank and therefore my first time performing a Fish-less cycle
 
With that being said...
My tank is 35g Freshwater. I added a bubbler to help this proccess. I dont have friends with fish tanks and I cannot borrow old filter media from the fish store to speed the process. 
I'm on about Day 20 of my fish-less cycle and have not noticed a change at all.
I am using Ammonia. (old country 900ml) This is the only thing available in Canada these days. I think its fine. 
I got it up to what I think is 4ppm. This API test kit is impossible to read. And the 5in1 test strips are even worse. I asked my friend what he thought the reading was and he said 8ppm. lol I don't know how to read them any more. I think the color is 4ppm though not 8. 
The pH looks too be about 7pH but for all I know it could be 6 or 8. Only half of the square seems to go orange.
 
Anyways... I'm stuck and frustrated and in need of assistance. I have read a lot of forums and have spent countless hours researching this topic.
Everyone is telling me to just throw fish in it including my locale pet store. They seem lost when I talk about a fish-less cycle.
I want my fish to have a stable environment before I add them but any day now I am about to quit and let them live through stress.
 
I hope you ladies and gentlemen can help me out. 
Some advice/guidance would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thank you

 

[daizeUK]

How much of the Old Country ammonia did you add to your tank?

As far as I can tell, Old Country contains 4% ammonia. If I plug this into the calculator with (35USG, 3ppm, 4% solution) then it tells me you should have added about 10ml of the ammonia.

It sounds like you may have too much ammonia and may need to do a water change to bring it down. Try a 25% water change and then test again. Your ideal target is 3ppm.

20 days is not excessive for ammonia to drop however. It can take about 3 weeks.

Ignore the people telling you to throw fish in. You know better than they do and you are doing the right thing!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

daize is pretty much right on in here observations. When I run your tank and allow 10% reduction only in capacity i get an ammonia dose of 8.94 ml. If I adjust down to 85% (which may be a better number in this case) I get a dose of 8.45 ml.
 
While we must rely on our test kits, I would never suggest that they are a good way to adjust dosing in terns or measuring how much. You must use the calculator as it has no testing errors involved. No color interpretation. If one has the proper numbers entered into the calculator and adds that amount of ammonia and then tests soon after and gets a result that differs from the levels indicated using the calculator, I will trust the calc. over the test kit every time.
 
Since you are trying to figure out how much ammonia you added using a test kit which you cannot figure out the what the actual reading may be, I would say you really have no idea what you have. So here is my suggestion. Do as large a water change as you can, not just 25%. When you refill the tank with dechlored water, test in about 15 minutes. Subtract any ammonia you still test from 3 ppm and then use the calculator to determine how much ammonia to add to make of the difference. What is happening here is we are trying to reset your tank and then establish with some level of accuracy what is up.
 
This should get you back on track and insure the ammonia levels are conducive to getting your tank cycled. After tou have done all of this keep us posted on what is going on in the tank. Also, if you have not yet done so, have a read here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first

 

[Gruntle]

Hi all, I'm halfway through setting up my 20l breeder tank for Cherry Barbs. Stole all of the filter media I needed from my Aquis 1000 canister (had a piece of filter wool used to stop the bioballs from rattling up the pipe - replaced with a new piece, 5 bioballs and a half dozen ceramics). Stole a couple handfuls of gravel for the bottom. Left everything running for 24 hours to come up with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 40 nitrate.
 
Yesterday I put 3ppm ammonia in.
24 hours later, ammonia is 0.25-0.5ppm, nitrites are zero, didn't bother (yet) with nitrate but I assume it's a little higher.
 
I thought ammonia would drop to zero. Am I wrong? Should I wait longer than another 24 hours before testing again? My expectation was that ammonia would drop and nitrites would take a little longer.
 
Once I'm sure I'm getting 0/0 in 24 hours I thought I'd move a couple of female Cherry Barbs in to keep the bacteria busy, and when I get my plastic canvas (ordered and in delivery) I'll divide the tank and put the male in the other side, then condition them up and let the magic happen eventually.

Sorry, water is at about 7-7.4pH and 26 degrees.

 

[orangegecko]

How long until ammonia drops and nitrite goes up? 
 
My second reading (day 4) only showed 1ppm (I didn't check it after I added it on day 1, forgot to), and it finally went to .5ppm on day 10 and is still there on day 13 (today).  Nitrite has been at 0ppm the whole time.  Should I wait it out for a few more readings or add some ammonia to it?  I'm concerned as I am unsure if on day 1 there was actually 3ppm of ammonia in the tank. 
 
PH is 8 - 8.2 and have the tank at 78 ºF (24 ºC). 
 
I have been reading the fishless cycle document over and over!
 
Thanks for any input.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Gruntle and gecko- am guessing you are getting a false ammonia readings and an accurate nitrite one. In a cycled tank both types of bacteria live together and in appropriate numbers to move all the ammonia to nitrate.
 
You both have had a few ppm of ammonia obviously go away and yet 0 nitrite appears, something not possible if there were no nitrite bacs.
 
I need to stress this again. That cycling article assumes one is not using either bottlde bacteria, seeding from and established nor any serious amount of live plants (these eat ammonia and bring in bacteria). The final section of the article suggests if you do any of these things you test more often. In addition, any number of things can throw off test results.
 
And once again my suggestion to you both would be to do a large water change. Before you add the same amount of ammonia you did the first time, test for nitrAte and record the reading. Then test in 24 hours in 24 hours. First test ammonia and nitrite. If you have 0/0, you are cycled. If your ammonia is at the same level again and nitrites are 0 again, then test for nitrate. If its clearly higher than the reading you wrote down, that means the tank is processing nitrate and something is likely causing a false ammonia reading and you are most likely cycled. If none of the above is how things go, come back and post all the details.
 
For those curious, doing a large water change is designed to let one reset things. The idea is that you can clear the water of as much ammonia and nitrite as possible, redose and then the results will be a lot easier to understand. This doesn't harm or destroy any already established bacteria nor will it slow the cycle since the ammonia will be back very fast and if it is oxidized, then you have nitrites again too , unless you are cycled.

 

[Gruntle]

Thanks TTA. I'll do a large water change tonight and start arranging the tank for the breeding process.

 

[orangegecko]

Thanks TTA.  What would you consider a large water change?  75%?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Remove as much water as you can.

 

[cormack12]

Hey going to be starting this cycle tonight. I used a pH meter last night, stirred the water three times and left it in for ten miinutes. Seemed to have stabilised around 6.4
 
Do I need to do anything different considering the low pH?
 
The tank has been set up for about four days now, it has had dechlorinator added and a capful of kickstart bacteria. There is nothing else in there at the moment. My ammonia and freshwater API kit should be at home tonight for me to start on this.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You don't 'need' anything for the cycle, but it will be important to keep an eye on the pH.  Watch for drops.  Adding a tiny bit of sodium bicarbonate, or calcium carbonate would help to buffer the water.  Both will increase the pH (as well as the kH, which is our real goal in adding it), but will be removed by water change before the fish are added. 

 

[orangegecko]

Gruntle and gecko- am guessing you are getting a false ammonia readings and an accurate nitrite one. In a cycled tank both types of bacteria live together and in appropriate numbers to move all the ammonia to nitrate.
 
You both have had a few ppm of ammonia obviously go away and yet 0 nitrite appears, something not possible if there were no nitrite bacs.
 
I need to stress this again. That cycling article assumes one is not using either bottlde bacteria, seeding from and established nor any serious amount of live plants (these eat ammonia and bring in bacteria). The final section of the article suggests if you do any of these things you test more often. In addition, any number of things can throw off test results.
 
The only two things I am using are Marineland Aquarium Conditioner (reads on the bottle, dechlorinates & promotes health, immune booster & protective slime coat) and DrTim's Ammonium Chloride solution for fishless cycling (I have not used DrTim's aquatics one and only live nitrifying bacteria as it says you can on the bottle).
 
And once again my suggestion to you both would be to do a large water change. Before you add the same amount of ammonia you did the first time, test for nitrAte and record the reading. Then test in 24 hours in 24 hours. First test ammonia and nitrite. If you have 0/0, you are cycled. If your ammonia is at the same level again and nitrites are 0 again, then test for nitrate. If its clearly higher than the reading you wrote down, that means the tank is processing nitrate and something is likely causing a false ammonia reading and you are most likely cycled. If none of the above is how things go, come back and post all the details.
 
I did a large water change yesterday and tested for nitrate before adding the ammonia and got 0ppm for nitrate.  I then added the ammonia and took a reading 30 minutes later and got 3ppm of ammonia.  I Tested today (24hrs later) got 3ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, and what looks to be about 0 - 2.5ppm of nitrate.  Should I consider this my new starting point for the fishless cycle and my day 1?  What should my next steps be?  Does any of this make any sense?  I apologize in advance for my n00bness! 

 
For those curious, doing a large water change is designed to let one reset things. The idea is that you can clear the water of as much ammonia and nitrite as possible, redose and then the results will be a lot easier to understand. This doesn't harm or destroy any already established bacteria nor will it slow the cycle since the ammonia will be back very fast and if it is oxidized, then you have nitrites again too , unless you are cycled.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you have processed 0 ammonia you will have no nitrite. Changing water will not remove the bacteria. Therefore it looks to me as if you are starting a cycle not finishing one. If you look at the chart in the article- you are virtually at the start.

 

[orangegecko]

If you have processed 0 ammonia you will have no nitrite. Changing water will not remove the bacteria. Therefore it looks to me as if you are starting a cycle not finishing one. If you look at the chart in the article- you are virtually at the start.

 
That's what I was afraid of.  Thanks for your help.

 

[Moon-xo]

How much of the Old Country ammonia did you add to your tank?

As far as I can tell, Old Country contains 4% ammonia. If I plug this into the calculator with (35USG, 3ppm, 4% solution) then it tells me you should have added about 10ml of the ammonia.

It sounds like you may have too much ammonia and may need to do a water change to bring it down. Try a 25% water change and then test again. Your ideal target is 3ppm.

20 days is not excessive for ammonia to drop however. It can take about 3 weeks.

Ignore the people telling you to throw fish in. You know better than they do and you are doing the right thing!

 
 

daize is pretty much right on in here observations. When I run your tank and allow 10% reduction only in capacity i get an ammonia dose of 8.94 ml. If I adjust down to 85% (which may be a better number in this case) I get a dose of 8.45 ml.
 
While we must rely on our test kits, I would never suggest that they are a good way to adjust dosing in terns or measuring how much. You must use the calculator as it has no testing errors involved. No color interpretation. If one has the proper numbers entered into the calculator and adds that amount of ammonia and then tests soon after and gets a result that differs from the levels indicated using the calculator, I will trust the calc. over the test kit every time.
 
Since you are trying to figure out how much ammonia you added using a test kit which you cannot figure out the what the actual reading may be, I would say you really have no idea what you have. So here is my suggestion. Do as large a water change as you can, not just 25%. When you refill the tank with dechlored water, test in about 15 minutes. Subtract any ammonia you still test from 3 ppm and then use the calculator to determine how much ammonia to add to make of the difference. What is happening here is we are trying to reset your tank and then establish with some level of accuracy what is up.
 
This should get you back on track and insure the ammonia levels are conducive to getting your tank cycled. After tou have done all of this keep us posted on what is going on in the tank. Also, if you have not yet done so, have a read here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first

 
Thank you very much for your replies.
 
So you calculated that I should add about 9-10ml of ammonia. I added 3 caps-full initially which I am estimating now to be about 15-20ml.
I did do a 25% water change after day 3 or so to get it down to what I thought was 4ppm.
I have also been adding a gallon of water once every week as it is evaporating.

My tests now are showing about 1ppm. 2 max, which indicates progress right? 
However I do not see any nitrate yet. The strip is still white.
 
Do you still recommend a full water change? Will I be starting over then?
Did I just waste 30 days?
 
I appreciate the help. I feel alone in this process. Thank you very much.

Moon