Ask Questions About Cycling
Your choice of stocking may have something to do with the water quality problems as the clown loach and 5 plecos are not suitable for a 100L tank. They produce a lot of mess and need a much bigger tank.
As benthyer says, if you washed your filter media in tap water you may have destroyed all your good bacteria that deal with fish waste. A lot of bacteria can live in the gravel as well so you may have removed a large part of bacteria that way.
Can you get yourself a home testing kit? This will give you a much clearer idea of what is going on. A liquid testing kit like the Master API kit is a good choice (not the test strips). Our advice to you will be different depending on whether you have deadly levels of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate and ideally you need to know exactly what the levels are.
Based on the description of 'deadly' I would advise 20% water changes every day until you can get your water re-tested.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
While washing ones media etc in tap water may do some harm, it will not wipe out all the bacteria. Chloramines will only put them to sleep until the chloramine breaks doen and then the ammonia it leaves bhind gets the bacteria going full steam again. Chlorine penetrates the biofilm where the bacteria live at a way way slower rate than does chloramine. So the short term exposure to low levels of chlorine are not going to wipe out anything. However, this does not mean no damage is done.
If one scrubs things from a tank they are much more likely to dislodge bits of the biofilms and the bacteria in it. hard current causes shear forces which can also dislodge the biofilm, especially if it has grown beeper rather than spreading out more thinly on surfaces.
The general rule for cleaning things in an established tank is to not do it all at once. If you need to change the substrate do it in several sessions over time so all the bacteria isnt taken out at once.
Finally, almost all the fish in this tank are poorly suited for doing a fish in cycle. Only the platys might work.
I would suggest that daize has been a tad cautious in suggesting only 20% wcs. Since you have no numbers on how bad your water might be and because the fish are not very ammonia/nitrite tolerant, I would suggest changing more- 1/3 to 1/2 daily to be safe. Deadly can mean 2 ppm of ammonia to some and 5 ppm to others. How deadly it may be depends not only on the actual test reading but what one's pH and water temp are. Yhe higher these are, the more toxic any amount of ammonia becomes.
If one scrubs things from a tank they are much more likely to dislodge bits of the biofilms and the bacteria in it. hard current causes shear forces which can also dislodge the biofilm, especially if it has grown beeper rather than spreading out more thinly on surfaces.
The general rule for cleaning things in an established tank is to not do it all at once. If you need to change the substrate do it in several sessions over time so all the bacteria isnt taken out at once.
Finally, almost all the fish in this tank are poorly suited for doing a fish in cycle. Only the platys might work.
I would suggest that daize has been a tad cautious in suggesting only 20% wcs. Since you have no numbers on how bad your water might be and because the fish are not very ammonia/nitrite tolerant, I would suggest changing more- 1/3 to 1/2 daily to be safe. Deadly can mean 2 ppm of ammonia to some and 5 ppm to others. How deadly it may be depends not only on the actual test reading but what one's pH and water temp are. Yhe higher these are, the more toxic any amount of ammonia becomes.
Second dose of ammonia added yesterday, reading was at 3ppm. 24 hours later my ammonia is at 0.25ppm but the Nitrites haven't budged. Is this normal? I thought that ammonia was only suppose to drop this quickly towards the end of a cycle. On the chart it looks like the ammonia was supposed to gradually drop over the course of a few days.
Be patient.
In the future, add only enough ammonia to get to 3ppm, not 4.
In the future, add only enough ammonia to get to 3ppm, not 4.
orangegecko
Fish Fanatic
So I started cycling, and my first reading (today) was 1ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite... I didn't check the ammonia after I added it (a few days ago) which I think I should have to see what the level was. Suggestions?
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Orange, I suggest you follow the directions in the site cycling article here http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first
orangegecko
Fish Fanatic
TwoTankAmin said:Orange, I suggest you follow the directions in the site cycling article here http
It's bookmarked and I have been reading it (over and over!). I guess the excitement has gotten to me expecting something... Gotta practice more patience and play the waiting game!
May I have a wee bit of help please. I have a new Fluval Edge 23 litre set up, filled and planted on Thursday with one dose of Nutrafin. Then for the next 48 hours was floored, not sure if it was reading the fishless cycle
or the virus that hit me like a ton of bricks.
Staggered out of bed this am to find a lone snail and lots of eggs in the tank so have just scalded the bogwood and pebbles, 'bleached' the plants, rinsed them thoroughly and set the system back up, including a dose of nutrafin. Now I'm coming out of my fug a little I really want to do a fishless cycle (no fish at the mo)
the water readings are:
Tap Tank
7.6 pH 7.6
0.25 Amm 2ppm
0 n'ites 1ppm
40-80 n'ates 40ppm
Temp is steady at 23 C
Don't have anything to test hardness of water, using API Freshwater Master Kit.
I have calculated I would need about .82ml of ammonia if I was starting from scratch but not sure what to do as there is already 2ppm in the tank. Where do I go from here.
Also could anybody tell me definately what brand of ammonia I would need. it's not easy getting stuff on the Isle of Wight. Ultimately I would like a Betta, shrimp and otto
??
Any advice is graciously welcomed.
Thank you.
the water readings are:
Tap Tank
7.6 pH 7.6
0.25 Amm 2ppm
0 n'ites 1ppm
40-80 n'ates 40ppm
Temp is steady at 23 C
Don't have anything to test hardness of water, using API Freshwater Master Kit.
I have calculated I would need about .82ml of ammonia if I was starting from scratch but not sure what to do as there is already 2ppm in the tank. Where do I go from here.
Also could anybody tell me definately what brand of ammonia I would need. it's not easy getting stuff on the Isle of Wight. Ultimately I would like a Betta, shrimp and otto
?? Any advice is graciously welcomed.
Thank you.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
OK- the first thing is bleaching the plants actually reduced your bacteria as plants are covered in it. The same for what you did to the gravel and wood. So you definitely took a bit of a step backward. The only bacteria you might have now would be mostly in the filter. However, you probably do still have some bacteria working there.
You neglected to indicate how you got 2 ppm of ammonia into your tank now. Have you dosed any and when? In all your cleaning how much water got changed?
Not knowing these things makes it hard to offer advice. Probably the easiest thing to do now is as big a wc as you can to try and zero out the tank and then start over. Keep proper records of what you do and when you have questions this info is easy to provide. If you follow this advice to reset then the next step is to test when you have it refilled. Ammonia is important to know and the presence nitrite will be informative. If you get any ammonia reading, subtract that number of ppm from 3 and the result is how much ammonia you need to add. Next use 20l (not 23) to calculate the dosing to produce that number of ppm (3 ppm - any ppm already there). Also, raise the temp of the tank to at least 25C and anything up to about 30C is fine. The bacteria will multiply faster. However, if you have a decent level of planting (i.e. more than just a few) I would reduce the 3 ppm goal down to 2 ppm. Having sufficient live plants is like a cycling safety net which means a tank need less bacteria to be safe.
Now you will need to understand that the directions for cycling here do not consider planting. that means the test results you should get will not match those in the cycling article. Nitrite numbers will not match at all. This will complicate things if one doesn't understand how plants alter the whole cycling process. Your plants will eat ammonia but they will not turn it to nitrite. Since I can not write out all you should know here to get your tank fish ready, you will have to keep us informed of the progress so when you have a question or problems we can see what you have done and how it affected things in terms of cycling.
The info we need to know- what plants and how many? Dosing of ammonia both amounts and time, any wc, any ferts, lighting info, test results etc. Plus the timing of these things as well. Since you have started and have some bacteria, I suggest you be testing at least daily to start. Test for ammonia and nitrite, don't waste time and money testing nitrate.
You neglected to indicate how you got 2 ppm of ammonia into your tank now. Have you dosed any and when? In all your cleaning how much water got changed?
Not knowing these things makes it hard to offer advice. Probably the easiest thing to do now is as big a wc as you can to try and zero out the tank and then start over. Keep proper records of what you do and when you have questions this info is easy to provide. If you follow this advice to reset then the next step is to test when you have it refilled. Ammonia is important to know and the presence nitrite will be informative. If you get any ammonia reading, subtract that number of ppm from 3 and the result is how much ammonia you need to add. Next use 20l (not 23) to calculate the dosing to produce that number of ppm (3 ppm - any ppm already there). Also, raise the temp of the tank to at least 25C and anything up to about 30C is fine. The bacteria will multiply faster. However, if you have a decent level of planting (i.e. more than just a few) I would reduce the 3 ppm goal down to 2 ppm. Having sufficient live plants is like a cycling safety net which means a tank need less bacteria to be safe.
Now you will need to understand that the directions for cycling here do not consider planting. that means the test results you should get will not match those in the cycling article. Nitrite numbers will not match at all. This will complicate things if one doesn't understand how plants alter the whole cycling process. Your plants will eat ammonia but they will not turn it to nitrite. Since I can not write out all you should know here to get your tank fish ready, you will have to keep us informed of the progress so when you have a question or problems we can see what you have done and how it affected things in terms of cycling.
The info we need to know- what plants and how many? Dosing of ammonia both amounts and time, any wc, any ferts, lighting info, test results etc. Plus the timing of these things as well. Since you have started and have some bacteria, I suggest you be testing at least daily to start. Test for ammonia and nitrite, don't waste time and money testing nitrate.
Hello
As TTA has already asked, not sure how you managed to get 2ppm of ammonia into your tank unless you already have ammonia. So answering that would be a great start.
Also not certain how you calculated to get 0.82ml of ammonia for 3ppm in a 23 litre tank.
Using this forum's calculator i calculated that for 3ppm of 9.5% ammonia for a 23 litre tank, should be 0.73ml, max.
( Don't forget you have substrate, decor and plants etc so that means you actually have less than 23 litres of water, therefore will deduct 10% from 23 litres for these, so your tank is more likely to hold about 20.7 litres of water, so, again 3ppm of 9.5% ammonia calculates at 0.65 ml )
As for ammonia brands and sources, here is a link that may help you.
Usually much easier to order these online and should be easily delivered to I.O.W where you are.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/427161-ammonia-and-bacteria-starter-sources/
As TTA has already asked, not sure how you managed to get 2ppm of ammonia into your tank unless you already have ammonia. So answering that would be a great start.
Katzfish said:
Also not certain how you calculated to get 0.82ml of ammonia for 3ppm in a 23 litre tank.
Using this forum's calculator i calculated that for 3ppm of 9.5% ammonia for a 23 litre tank, should be 0.73ml, max.
( Don't forget you have substrate, decor and plants etc so that means you actually have less than 23 litres of water, therefore will deduct 10% from 23 litres for these, so your tank is more likely to hold about 20.7 litres of water, so, again 3ppm of 9.5% ammonia calculates at 0.65 ml )
Katzfish said:
As for ammonia brands and sources, here is a link that may help you.
Usually much easier to order these online and should be easily delivered to I.O.W where you are.
http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/427161-ammonia-and-bacteria-starter-sources/Hi guys, thanks for the replies, advice, info and links.
My decision is to restart the tank again. The ammonia has been ordered, I will buy a new heater. The one I have was thrown in with the tank but I have read such bad reviews about it and they have turned out to be correct. It is a shame as it is really neat and sits well in the Fluval Edge but is pretty useless.
Will the plants I have make any difference to the amount of the first dose of ammonia? I have an anubias coffeefolia that I have tied to bogwood, a java fern on wood, a pogostemon stellatus and 2 Pogostemon helferi.
When I have everything to hand I will do a very large wc, test, add ammonia, follow the instructions to the letter and post here to make sure it is going OK.
Thanks again.
My decision is to restart the tank again. The ammonia has been ordered, I will buy a new heater. The one I have was thrown in with the tank but I have read such bad reviews about it and they have turned out to be correct. It is a shame as it is really neat and sits well in the Fluval Edge but is pretty useless.
Will the plants I have make any difference to the amount of the first dose of ammonia? I have an anubias coffeefolia that I have tied to bogwood, a java fern on wood, a pogostemon stellatus and 2 Pogostemon helferi.
When I have everything to hand I will do a very large wc, test, add ammonia, follow the instructions to the letter and post here to make sure it is going OK.
Thanks again.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
I hate to be the bearer of bad new- you have virtually no change doing a pogostemon stellatus in your tank. It needs very high light, pressurized co2 and well fertilized.
The anubias and fern should be OK with ammonia added, not sure on the Pogostemon helferi. I would suggest only dosing to 2 ppm until you see what is up. You are very lightly planted and my guess is you could have cyled and then planted as well as going this route.
Watch out for algae with higher ammonia dosing and lights on. If your tank can handle 2 ppm of ammonia w/o any nirtie as well inside 24 hours. You can stock the tank moderately and finish up stocking once you know the tank is stable with the initial fish. A few weeks later with luck.
The biggest benefits from plants relative to cycling and bacteria come from planting more and including a decent number of substrate rooted plants. In such a well planed tank there should be a good deal of the total nitrifying bacteria in one's substrate rather than one's filter.
The anubias and fern should be OK with ammonia added, not sure on the Pogostemon helferi. I would suggest only dosing to 2 ppm until you see what is up. You are very lightly planted and my guess is you could have cyled and then planted as well as going this route.
Watch out for algae with higher ammonia dosing and lights on. If your tank can handle 2 ppm of ammonia w/o any nirtie as well inside 24 hours. You can stock the tank moderately and finish up stocking once you know the tank is stable with the initial fish. A few weeks later with luck.
The biggest benefits from plants relative to cycling and bacteria come from planting more and including a decent number of substrate rooted plants. In such a well planed tank there should be a good deal of the total nitrifying bacteria in one's substrate rather than one's filter.
I found that after a couple of weeks, the ammonia was dropping to almost zero overnight, but the nitrites took a good couple of weeks longer. This is normal (I think). Nitrite eaters take far longer to establish a big enough colony to properly cycle a full dose of ammonia in 24 hours.508 said:
Similar threads
Most reactions
-
239 -
210 -
196 -
171 -
163 -
153 -
141 -
131 -
104 -
103 -
95 -
85 -
83 -
81 -
62