any more discussion on the smallest proper sized shoal for Angel Fish??? or the smallest aquarium you should be allowed to keep angel fish in

[Magnum Man]

got a pretty heavily planted 45 gallon with 4 of about 12 eventual Congo tetras, ( the 1st 4 were a trial after I got my water issues fixed ) otherwise just a few Cory's some Armano shrimp, a few Coolies that pretty much stay in the substrate... this tank had more fish, but I chose not to buy anymore, after I lost them, until I got my water issues worked out... so now it's pretty much wide open... I'm thinking 5 medium sized Angels, all added at the same time... thoughts as far as best sized shoal in a 45 gallon???

...edited to add the tanks dimensions since this is an international forum... in the US, a 45 gallon aquarium is a standard size... ( I have 3, all the same dimensions )

"The 45 gallon fish tank dimensions measure 13 inches wide by 36 inches long by 24 inches high" ( 33cm X 91.5cm X 61cm )

 

[Byron]

This tank is too small for a group of angelfish long term. Please understand that this fish attains 6 inches in body length (minus the tail) and a vertical fin span of 8 inches. If you have a bonded breeding pair, they would work here at least for a time, depending upon tank dimensions, but not with other fish.

Some people have luck with two angels, this is hit and miss. And such conditions are never in the best interest of the fish. As Gary has posted a while back, we cause the vast majority of aggression in fish because we ignore their needs and expectations, putting them into completely un-natural environments. The fish has no option but lashing out because his instinct says one thing but the environment does not allow this to play out.

 

[Magnum Man]

so 1 fish??? or is anyone with less that a 75 or 120 gallon inhumane to have Angel Fish at all???

 

[Lcc86]

so 1 fish??? or is anyone with less that a 75 or 120 gallon inhumane to have Angel Fish at all???

Seeing this come up here a lot recently, I don't keep angels but I think it's clear from everything that's being posted that they need way more space than it may initially appear.

I don't think any of the comments on recent threads are personal attacks, just people who want the best for fish.

 

[Magnum Man]

I'm putting in a 120 gallon tall tank this winter... I was planning on Discus fish in that tank, but maybe I'll have to wait on the Angels until that tank comes on line... I have several 55 gallon tanks, but actually the 45 gallon being taller, seems more natural for Angels than a shorter standard 55 gallon???

just trying to figure out what to do... in the end, I do what I want, but I'll admit there is a lot of knowledge in the members here, but when they don't agree, I have to weigh both opinions, & make up my own mind, if I think something will work... some past discussions have left me feeling that really none of us should keep fish, by the responses of some of those members...

I'd be curious how many 1" Angel Fish have gone home with hobbyists that had 10 gallon tanks over the years... I understand how wrong it is now, probably did not at the age of 13... but how many parents have tried to appease their children over the years...

 

[GaryE]

One inch angels. why, I had six of them in my 15 gallon, when I was 12... I feel bad about that.

It's really hard to have rigid rules. I like to see my fish move, but would consider six for a 2m, 6 foot tank. I had 4 wild caughts in a 75, then 3, and finally 2. I know people who keep 4 in a 30. No one is going to enforce stocking rules, and my black helicopter is grounded with the cost of fuel.

What happens with the group is key, as are tankmates. 6 in a 55 will become a war zone. Any angel tank can, and that's the wild card/secret. I've had males who took an 'out of sight out of mind' approach to tankmates, and others who seemed to take a 'recently gleefully disembowelled eyeless longtime tankmates might as well be finished off, since puberty has confused me' approach.

You never know.

There is a reason I've taken the unpopular and disputed approach of only keeping small fish. I have 6 4 foot tanks, and 1 6 footer. I don't have any medium sized fish. I grew tired of the carnage, the short lives and the awful fish watching. Everything I suggest is based on my "fish behaviour is why we keep them' approach. I get that larger fish appeal, and I love Geophagus and Satanoperca. In my view, after years of keeping them, no tank I have is large enough.

Angels? Oh yeah, I could give in to that urge again, if wilds came around. But everything I say will have hordes disagreeing. I'm no fun.

Stocking depends on whether you can keep the fish healthy. I think we owe them that. It also depends on what you want to see. We all approach that differently, and tend to think everyone thinks like we do. I mean, everyone SHOULD think like me, but they just don't...

"Disposable fish" is a dirty phrase, but a lot of us think like that. I know deep down that if you kept wild caught angels or altums badly, I'd be pi##ed off at you, but sadly, if you keep domestic fancy angels, or blood parrots, or gfancy bettas, or electric blue acaas badly, I just don't see them the same way. They're like food fish to me, if I am honest. That is piscipolitically incorrect of me.

 

[AlexT]

Are you going to keep asking until you get the answer you want or when you don't get the answer you want, you will throw another strop? Like when you tried to say gravel is sand earlier? Either get a proper size tank for angelfish or do something else

 

[Magnum Man]

@AlexT Well that wasn’t very nice..., I was tagging off the 40 gallon Angel Fish thread, where there was a difference of opinion, & it was kind of left there... I had Angel Fish in this aquarium before I got my water straightened out... & I get the "group dynamic" thing, buy 2 & if they are same sex or don't like each other its a battle... Buy 3 & if you get a pair, the other is 3rd wheel, & you get a battle... Buy 4 & guess what... it's another battle... seems you don't have to worry about them getting mature size... there is a battle...

I honestly didn't get an answer about buying 1... guessing if I do... I'll take heat for not getting enough of them... I've already got more experience raising fish, than many of you are old... so maybe I'm too old for this... I'll just quit posting so I don't irritate anyone else...

 

[GaryE]

@Magnum Man - you may have noticed there are no set answers. I go by whether people who answer explain themselves reasonably, which is why I can be so wordy. I try to explain my thought processes. Yes and no answers are garbage.

Disagreement and rejection of ideas are all part of discussing.

 

[ghyti]

There is a rule of thumb that says 10 gallons of water per adult Angelfish. So yes 5 Angels will be OK in a 45 gallon tank. I have 5 in my 45 gallon with no problems. Sometimes you get advice from a lot of people that have never raised Angels.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have only ever wanted to keep two different angels, The first were DD blacks and the second are Altums. Forget about the Altums as they are way different to keep than normal scalares.. I got 5 small DDs from a breeder in Atlanta (i am in NY) which went into my community planted 45 gal. tank. As they grew it was only a queation of time before a pair formed.

Once that happened I had to removed all of the other angels from the tank as the pair kept the other cowering in one corner of th tank.

I got my first spawn of over 500 eggs from the pair. I was learning about keeping angels first by reading some but more by actually keeping them. Agnels will normally only eat their own eggs rather than let something else do so. So the first spawn was toast. I pulled the second spawn and that was when I learned i did not want to spawn angels.

Consulting those who knew what they were doing I was ingformed that for every pair of spawning angels I had that I would need at least 2 55 gal. grow tanks and that was after culling. So I knew I did not not want to have breeding angels. I sold most of them off except for the group of about 20 I sent to the breeder who got me started. Shehad lost hers and I was able to restore the line to her. She was a very experienced breeder and her line was amazingly colored. A lovely uniform dark black that looked like velvet.

Having a pair of breeding angels in a community tank means war. If you are serious about keeping them and having them breed, you really need a species tank. I have been told by people who know that one can breed angels inas small as a 10 gal. for a pair. But it takes a lot of work and you have to pull each spawn when very young to a grow tank. Only the most experienced breeders should even attempt this.

Paired angels will wreck havoc in a 45 unless they are on their own. They do not tolerate anything that they think is a threat to their eggs or babies. This includes other angels. A bigger tank as you mentioned it might work, but the parents will still become very aggressive. Space may blunt that.

 

[Magnum Man]

if I was able to buy locally sounds like a pack of all boys or all girls would be the easiest to keep ( I don't personally know how to sex Angels ) however I don't have a local shop, so just about everything is mail order...at the point I'm at in life, I would rather have them look pretty, rather than go through the extra work of breeding them... ( I will go through the extra hassle to breed Tilapia, because I want to eat them... & extra fry / fingerlings could be feeders for the few fish I have that would enjoy those...

so BTW... do we think a group of males or females would be more peaceful???

 

[Byron]

if I was able to buy locally sounds like a pack of all boys or all girls would be the easiest to keep ( I don't personally know how to sex Angels ) however I don't have a local shop, so just about everything is mail order...at the point I'm at in life, I would rather have them look pretty, rather than go through the extra work of breeding them... ( I will go through the extra hassle to breed Tilapia, because I want to eat them... & extra fry / fingerlings could be feeders for the few fish I have that would enjoy those...

so BTW... do we think a group of males or females would be more peaceful???

No. Males are territorial and while various males may or may not take this as literally as others, it is still a trait of all fish in the species. Females are less so, but again, we have had members who reported them tearing into each other. The tank being discussed is inadequate for any group of this large a fish, but getting all males is certainly more likely to cause trouble.

@TwoTankAmin explained the situation pretty well--if you end up with a pair (or more), provisions for all the offspring going forward need to be thought out.

 

[ghyti]

if I was able to buy locally sounds like a pack of all boys or all girls would be the easiest to keep ( I don't personally know how to sex Angels ) however I don't have a local shop, so just about everything is mail order...at the point I'm at in life, I would rather have them look pretty, rather than go through the extra work of breeding them... ( I will go through the extra hassle to breed Tilapia, because I want to eat them... & extra fry / fingerlings could be feeders for the few fish I have that would enjoy those...

so BTW... do we think a group of males or females would be more peaceful???

It is almost impossible to get a group of all 5 males or females. Very few people can sex them that accurately. A group of males will be fine once the pecking order has been established, females too. For breeding, have some plants and other decoration in the tank to form hiding places as needed. If a pair spawns all the other ones will get pushed to one end of the tank while there are eggs to defend. No serious damage will occur as long as hiding spaces are available. When the eggs are gone all goes back to normal til next time. If a pair forms and spawns just remove the female and add a new one. This way you will eventually end up with all males. Females will spawn and defend without males around.

 

[GaryE]

The problem with removing fish to get all males is they will continue to murder each other, slowly and painfully in most cases. You would be better to remove females.
But to do this, you need several tanks. Or you need to kill the fish that don't work out for you - a solution that most hobbyists would reject.

I admit, when posters say they can sex angels with 100% accuracy, it undermines their credibility. I have been in angelfish breeding facilities where the breeders have identified pairs from behaviour, but only been certain of which was which when they saw the breeding tubes.

From a fish watching point of view, males pecking the weakest link to death is not a good show, and that attrition can be almost endless, til there's no one left to die. They don't get to be angels if they're all alive, right?