Adding Ammonia...

[ChilliPepper]

Managed to track some ammonia down in Homebase on my 2nd visit (on my 1st visit 3 people on the customer service desk said they didn't sell it ).

I have done the calculator thing on this forum and it says I need 10ml for my 190L tank. So is that a teaspoon and a half? Also when should I start testing?

Thanks

 

[ChilliPepper]

*bump*

 

[Ren&Stumpy]

Managed to track some ammonia down in Homebase on my 2nd visit (on my 1st visit 3 people on the customer service desk said they didn't sell it ).

I have done the calculator thing on this forum and it says I need 10ml for my 190L tank. So is that a teaspoon and a half? Also when should I start testing?

Thanks

firstly test the ammonia has no contaminants like soap etc by shaking the bottle and if it foams and stays foamy then you cant use it. Air bubbes will dispearse after a few seconds.

You need an aqurate way of delivering the same dose of ammonia each time an old medicine cup works well wash it out in hot water first though.

Add the dose of ammonia and leave for a week or so it will take that long or even longer for you to see a change in levels.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi there grumpy and welcome to TFF, must have missed your previous threads.

Water testing with your API or other liquid-reagent based kit should begin prior to Fishless cycling. The ideal fishless thread should clearly state your tank volume, filter media materials and the test results for ammonia, nitrite(NO2), pH and nitrate(NO3) on your TAP water, also your temperature and heater situation should be mentioned. You should start a logbook, part of which should log the Day1,Day2 etc. of the cycle, then date,time, temp, test results and observations and comments. You should pay particular attention to recording seemingly obvious milestones and things, as later you will forget them. OK, so all that was to say to test your tap water!

Now, about the amount of ammonia: Its not good to jump right in to measuring out a millilitre amount via a calculator and just putting it into the tank. What you need to do first is to put an even amount of water in a bucket (2 US gallons is better than one for this.) Calculate out the rough expectation you would have for how much ammonia would raise the 2 gallons to 5ppm and be sure to somehow start with -less- ammonia than that. Put that lesser amount in, measure and see what color your test kit shows, add more, keeping track and test again. Repeat until you know how much of *your* ammonia you needed to get you to 5ppm. You see, you can always trust the numbers and must go by what -your- bottle actually gives in reality.

I used glass droppers and actually counted drops, which was very tedious despite giving good accuracy. A graduated syringe is a much, much better way to both measure what its going to take to get your 5ppm and then to use to actually put the ammonia into the tank in the correct amount to get 5ppm. On the first tank one or two, you need to come in low and go up to 5ppm also.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ChilliPepper]

Thanks Waterdrop - should I test to see what level the ammonia is at in the tank now?

 

[mark.w.jones]

Yes, it is also worth getting ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH measurements of you water straight from the tap. Graduated teat pipettes can be found in many fish medicines and are far more accurate than a whacking great spoon. You are often talking about 0.5ml of a diffence between raising levels of ammonia to 4ppm or 5ppm ammonia in your tank.

 

[OldMan47]

Another way to get things right is to use half of the calculated dose and measure what you end up with. If it is half your target value then the calculator was right. If it is 2/3 what you wanted, you know how far off the calculator got it and you can adjust things without ever having an overdose. I am a bit leary of using a test bucket approach because most of us don't really know how much water we have in our tanks. I have filled several tanks with measured gallons of water and have never had it come out close to the advertised amount of water. My 20H took 17 gallons, my 125 took 110 and my 29s took about 25 gallons. I thought I might some day need to know for medications and such so I measured it but that is seldom ever done. People figure a 20 holds 20 gallons but the errors will throw off all your best calculations.

 

[Gruffle]

I would agree with Waterdrop, don't rely on the ammonia calculator too much, I did and it took a loooooooooong time to get my cycle started, the calculator said to put 7.5ml in for a 155l tank (homebase ammonia, like yours ), it was waaaaaaaay too much and i ended up with 8ppm instead of 4-5.

Vaguely related question, is it vastly important to put in the same dosage of ammonia each time? obviously there needs to be enough to feed the bacteria but its not gonna be the end of world putting too much in accidentally is it?

 

[rhostog]

You can buy a measuring dropper or graduated pipette marked out in ml from most pharmacy counters (Boots, or your local chemist, or a pharmacy counter in a supermarket), should cost you no more than about £1. They are accurately marked, and will also dispense quite consistently sized drops (useful for smaller tanks). They come in different sizes - you'll need one that measures up to about 10ml.

Our local supermarket pharmacy counter seems to employ people who are working towards a career on the Homebase customer service desk, so if they deny all knowledge of pipettes, measuring droppers, graduated syringes etc., ask to speak to someone else - there should be someone intelligent hiding behind the medicine shelves.

I think you'll find a dropper better than a cup or spoon - less exposure to the ammonia smell!

If you haven't already, I'd also suggest testing for nitrites in your tank before you start, even if you've already checked your tapwater. I and another forum member each found raised nitrites in our fishless tanks that had been standing for a few days (probably a bit of dead plant or something, but that sort of thing can completely throw your readings!)

Good luck!

 

[ChilliPepper]

Thanks for all the info.

Have done tests for ammonia and PH on my tap water and got 0 and 7.5 respectively. Which I was expecting as 7.5 is the PH of my 60L tank water and I would be shocked if there was ammonia in our tap water

Anyway, done my test for ammonia on my 190L tank's water and got this:

So not sure whether I have added enough ammonia to kick start the 'add and wait method'.

Please help!

 

[waterdrop]

I would agree with Waterdrop, don't rely on the ammonia calculator too much, I did and it took a loooooooooong time to get my cycle started, the calculator said to put 7.5ml in for a 155l tank (homebase ammonia, like yours ), it was waaaaaaaay too much and i ended up with 8ppm instead of 4-5.

Vaguely related question, is it vastly important to put in the same dosage of ammonia each time? obviously there needs to be enough to feed the bacteria but its not gonna be the end of world putting too much in accidentally is it?

OK Gruffle, the answer is both yes and no. It actually -is- important to not let your ammonia level get all the way up to 8ppm and for a very unexpected reason (at least I found it weird and surprising first time I read about it.) At 8ppm it turns out that you encourage a different species of autotrophic bacteria that's also there in the mix when you begin. This other species, at 8ppm, grows more readily and grabs lots of surface area on the media away from the species that we want. Once you lower the concentration again, this "8ppm" species has to die off, release the spaces and then our species has to take them over. All this takes time and is seen as a big slowdown of our fishless cycle. All this happens just because we were sloppy with the concentration of our ammonia, letting it get too high.

BUT, as long as you are not up there at 8ppm, then NO, the small differences in amount, that may end up varying between 2ppm and 6ppm are not terribly important and shouldn't be worried over. Just do your best to try for a consistent 5ppm during the first phase when watching for ammonia to drop, and maybe between 2-5ppm during the beginning of the second phase where the nitrite spikes, then easing back up to a solid 5ppm for the finish.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Guys! I made an editing error in yesterday's 11:17 post. I said:
"You see, you can always trust the numbers and must go by what -your- bottle actually gives in reality."
What I meant to say was:
"You see, you can't always trust the numbers and must go by what -your- bottle actually gives in reality."
This was in reference to that fact that you shouldn't trust what concentration of ammonia is in your household ammonia bottle, despite it possibly being claimed on the ingredients label. Which leads me to...

pps. oldman47 makes a good point, emphasizing one of the other things we all say... In the final instance, the most important thing is to test and measure the ammonia into your *tank*, because you never know your real volume after substrate and decorations etc. -- so the bottom line is that your actual tank water needs to be at 5ppm ammonia. All the other things are just handy tools trying to get you there more easily, but are not the final goal.

Whew! Enough with ammonia now??

 

[SharonCC]

I would get the Ammonia level up to 5ppm, and keep it at 5ppm. When nitrites appear, keep the Ammonia level at 3ppm. Good luck!!!

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, agree with Sharon's sentence.

Grumpy, it'll be important to judge the 5ppm right there under your own light, as everyone here should be aware that the "RGB" red/green/blue digital numbers carried about in pictures and passed between different software and hardware should never be trusted to be actually passing the same hue's of color as the original reality. Pictures are great for getting an idea across but can't be relied upon for numerical measurements.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ChilliPepper]

It's about the 2.4 shade, if a little darker. This was with 2 teaspoons of ammonia.

Would another teaspoon bring it up to 5ppm?

I have a pipette that I use for testing water - would it be OK to use this pipette then clean it in boiling water between uses?

 

[waterdrop]

Yea, its ok, you're just starting off with crude measurements, just keep focusing on how to make the measurement more accurate and more repeatable. Using the same instrument for both the tank water samples and the ammonia is not worth the trouble - it would quickly drive you crazy since you'll often want morning and evening tests of things each day. The ideal thing is to have two separate quantity-marked syringes or two separate quantity-marked glass droppers which you keep in very separate places. I always placed my "ammonia dropper" on big sheet of paper that said "Ammonia only" in big letters with big arrows pointing at the spot where the dropper was left to rest.

(One reason for this is that if you have to be away sometime and expect another family member to do tests for you, its very easy for them to draw the tank water sample with the ammonia dropper, and then scare you to death telling you a high ammonia reading for your tank over the phone!!!) Not to mention just your own day to day chance of the mistake.

~~waterdrop~~