About vacuuming the gravel?

[kwi]

"I want everyone to change but I won't because I've always done [insert anecdotal evidence]"

Will you ever just wind your neck in?

I'm getting thouroughly fed up, yes you have raised some good points for discussion but lately it seems like you're just spoiling for a fight.

Life is pretty rubbish for us all at the moment so just ease up.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I ran pygmy cats in a gravel base tank, no sand didn't bother them. They bred and were happy as. There is an obsession with sand and corys on this site which is completely un justified.

Maybe they lived and bred, but they couldn't filter feed. You prevented them from practicing one of their natural behaviours. Every watched cories filter fed through sand? If you had, you wouldn't ever keep them on gravel either.

You're not thinking outside the box or practicing a methodology you came up with, you're just doing what you learned 50 years ago and complaining that people do things differently now, while rejecting any science.

 

[itiwhetu]

Maybe they lived and bred, but they couldn't filter feed. You prevented them from practicing one of their natural behaviours. Every watched cories filter fed through sand? If you had, you wouldn't ever keep them on gravel either.

You're not thinking outside the box or practicing a methodology you came up with, you're just doing what you learned 50 years ago and complaining that people do things differently now, while rejecting any science.

Like keeping fry in a couple of liters of water on the top of a tank

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Like keeping fry in a couple of liters of water on the top of a tank

Ah yes, because keeping them in a breeder net without sand for seven days so they don't get eaten is the same as preventing fish from practicing their natural behaviours for their entire lifespan.

 

[Strmwrng]

I finally found time to check out my thread again and Wow! Things took a turn! So I’m gonna take all the opinions about vacuuming gravel into account and make a decision for my little tank. I appreciate all of your responses! I learn so much from this forum!

 

[vanalisa]

I finally found time to check out my thread again and Wow! Things took a turn! So I’m gonna take all the opinions about vacuuming gravel into account and make a decision for my little tank. I appreciate all of your responses! I learn so much from this forum!

Great initial question and great attitude.
You'll do great and will be amazed at what you can discover just by closely observing your tank and going with your gut

Huge thumbs up for live plants!!!
Let's see some pictures soon ☆

 

[FishGuest5123]

@itiwhetu said: “ Because this is a sad forum site with everyone just agreeing with each other. And not asking questions

I have never put the forum down.“

Deanasue: Really??? Perhaps you put the forum and members down without even realizing it. Please stop.

 

[FishGuest5123]

So I believe regarding vacuuming, we have a 50/50 consensus. A lot depends on what you keep, size, bio-load, plants, etc. We each have to determine what’s best for our individual tanks. Agreed?

 

[AilyNC]

I mean you could try both. Make sure you've a test kit and try not vacuuming gravel for a few weeks but keeping eye on your ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate. Then vaccum it weekly for a few weeks.

See which works better. But by testing regularly you make sure fish are ok.

 

[Fishiemang]

Plant the tank and never worry about a gravel vac again.

Plant the tank, and you will provide hiding spaces so you never need to seclude your fry ever again.

If you prefer to vac, just know that depending on frequency, you could do more harm than good.

Whoever said that the beneficial bacteria are mostly in the filter needs to do more research. It is proven that these bacteria thrive on surface areas. One of the benefits of sand is it has a higher surface area. More beneficial bacteria. I have found a mixture of substrates is best.

The cory argument is moot. I have corys in sand, in gravel and even in colorful sharp rock gravel. Their barbels are just fine. They thrive well in whatever environment they are put in. The only time I have seen barbel loss is due to disease. No joke here. I have read in a lot of places about that. Everyone seems to thing these are dumb fish or something. They still dig through the substrate, no matter what it is. I promise you that.

Has anyone every heard of seeding a tank? You ask a friend, or your lfs, for a cup of substrate from deep on the bottom. There is a reason for this. That is where your beneficial bacteria thrive. Your filter surfaces maybe hold some, and if you have a bio wheel setup, that will form some on the wheels, but your gravel/rock/sand is where the bulk live. They populate the surface area. Some gravels are specifically porous as to allow more surface area for bacteria to take hold. Insisting the filter is the main home of these guys is misinformation. There are no "filters" in nature. The bottom is the filter. The plants are the filter. The organisms in the water column are the filter. The entire eco environment is the filter. Putting a filter on a tank is more for mechanical removal of debris in the water, as well as providing some water support. Chemical removers such as carbon and zeolite, amongst others, will help in situations where you do not have that eco environment going (like my 75 gallon), but these also remove minerals from the water. This causes some diseases in fish as well.

Build the eco system, and most of what is argued can go away.

Be a water keeper and your fish will thrive, no matter what they are.

There are so many disagreements on this forum about substrate, temp, water changes, setups, plants ect...look....everyone has experiences in aquaria. Is everyone correct? No. But there are some misconceptions being floated around that can potentially be harmful. Like the topic here. Gravel vac'ing. Understand that by doing this, you will indeed disturb your cycle. You will remove bacteria. However, in an unplanted tank especially, you risk a rapid buildup of detritus. This is due to forgetting how fish are supposed to live in the environment. They are not fed by humans all day. They have to search and hunt for food daily. Fish should be fed sparingly. Especially in an unplanted aquarium. This cuts down on fish waste, and excess food, which gives the bacteria the ability to keep up. One feeding a day, and let them find what they missed. In a planted tank, the plants will utilize what they can, and there really is no need to vac. You still feed once a.day, but use a variety so the fish have to search and hunt their food.

I do see a lot of overthinking this hobby. Not only here, but all over the internet. Are my ideas the best? No. We saw why last week. But that was not the ideas fault. That was mine. I got lazy and 2 of my fish paid for it. Had I kept on, they would still be swimming away. Life lesson learned. The point to this is, go online and research the environment the fish you plan to kepp.come from. Whether it's sand, gravel, rock, and recreate that environment. You can add some cool attractions, but you also want to create a self sustaining environment that will.require the same amount of care as the place they come from in the first place.

 

[AbbeysDad]

To me it's really simple - you vacuum the gravel just as you would clean a filter.
As a matter of fact, the gravel is a great filter. Uneaten food along with fish and plant waste settles down into the gravel where a host many different bacterias (more than just nitrosimonas and nitrospira) go to work decomposing the waste, breaking it down (just like the mechanical portion in a filter!). Eventually, the remaining solids (now sludge) becomes relatively inert...but as this happens, the water becomes polluted. So gravel vacuuming, it like cleaning a filter...and who would suggest never cleaning a filter?!
Now one could argue that with enough rooted plants, a biotope is created making gravel vacuuming less or not important. But this would be an exception rather than a rule.
I would also suggest that an undergravel filter benefits from gravel vacuuming as the resulting sludge will reduce flow and impede the performance of beneficial bacteria. Much the same as detritus coating bio-media in a HOB or canister filter. I'm remembering in my youth thinking that a UGF didn't need to be vacuumed. It was a 10g with Abbey's (messy) goldfish Gracie. In time the gravel was full of crud and the nitrates went through the roof - lesson learned.
I also often cringe when I hear of canister filters that go for months without cleaning. It's ALWAYS good to get crud out of the system!
But once again, the need to gravel vacuum, just like the required volume/frequency of partial water changes to maintain water quality is relative to the bio-load and feeding inputs...and PLANTS, especially fast growing floating plants.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Plant the tank and never worry about a gravel vac again.

Plant the tank, and you will provide hiding spaces so you never need to seclude your fry ever again.

If you prefer to vac, just know that depending on frequency, you could do more harm than good.

Whoever said that the beneficial bacteria are mostly in the filter needs to do more research. It is proven that these bacteria thrive on surface areas. One of the benefits of sand is it has a higher surface area. More beneficial bacteria. I have found a mixture of substrates is best.

The cory argument is moot. I have corys in sand, in gravel and even in colorful sharp rock gravel. Their barbels are just fine. They thrive well in whatever environment they are put in. The only time I have seen barbel loss is due to disease. No joke here. I have read in a lot of places about that. Everyone seems to thing these are dumb fish or something. They still dig through the substrate, no matter what it is. I promise you that.

Has anyone every heard of seeding a tank? You ask a friend, or your lfs, for a cup of substrate from deep on the bottom. There is a reason for this. That is where your beneficial bacteria thrive. Your filter surfaces maybe hold some, and if you have a bio wheel setup, that will form some on the wheels, but your gravel/rock/sand is where the bulk live. They populate the surface area. Some gravels are specifically porous as to allow more surface area for bacteria to take hold. Insisting the filter is the main home of these guys is misinformation. There are no "filters" in nature. The bottom is the filter. The plants are the filter. The organisms in the water column are the filter. The entire eco environment is the filter. Putting a filter on a tank is more for mechanical removal of debris in the water, as well as providing some water support. Chemical removers such as carbon and zeolite, amongst others, will help in situations where you do not have that eco environment going (like my 75 gallon), but these also remove minerals from the water. This causes some diseases in fish as well.

Build the eco system, and most of what is argued can go away.

Be a water keeper and your fish will thrive, no matter what they are.

There are so many disagreements on this forum about substrate, temp, water changes, setups, plants ect...look....everyone has experiences in aquaria. Is everyone correct? No. But there are some misconceptions being floated around that can potentially be harmful. Like the topic here. Gravel vac'ing. Understand that by doing this, you will indeed disturb your cycle. You will remove bacteria. However, in an unplanted tank especially, you risk a rapid buildup of detritus. This is due to forgetting how fish are supposed to live in the environment. They are not fed by humans all day. They have to search and hunt for food daily. Fish should be fed sparingly. Especially in an unplanted aquarium. This cuts down on fish waste, and excess food, which gives the bacteria the ability to keep up. One feeding a day, and let them find what they missed. In a planted tank, the plants will utilize what they can, and there really is no need to vac. You still feed once a.day, but use a variety so the fish have to search and hunt their food.

I do see a lot of overthinking this hobby. Not only here, but all over the internet. Are my ideas the best? No. We saw why last week. But that was not the ideas fault. That was mine. I got lazy and 2 of my fish paid for it. Had I kept on, they would still be swimming away. Life lesson learned. The point to this is, go online and research the environment the fish you plan to kepp.come from. Whether it's sand, gravel, rock, and recreate that environment. You can add some cool attractions, but you also want to create a self sustaining environment that will.require the same amount of care as the place they come from in the first place.

Most of us seed our tanks. I keep extra sponges in all of my ani’s just for that purpose. Not all tanks can be heavily planted. Depends on the fish you have. For instance, my goldfish eat plants like salad. There is no one size fits all, I’m afraid.

 

[Koglin]

Lol feel bad for the OP.. lot to read through for a simple question.. haha. Simple questions aren't always simple answers though. Best to respect each other's opinions and not close ourselves off to learning individually with a hobby like this.

For example, the Cory's and gravel: while some of you have said that's fine, and maybe you had no issues, that doesn't mean it CANT happen and that no one else has had problems with it. If that were the case it wouldn't be such a widespread topic of Cory's throughout the internet. It's not like there is only 1 type of universal gravel were talking about either, some really are sharper than others.

For me, talking specifically pygmaeus, I would not expect my pygmy (they're very small) to move a piece of gravel taller than he is just to happily dig around. It CAN hurt them, for each of you that says it's fine I can also find people whose Cory's were NOT fine. I mean they're only like a 1/4" tall. If you had to dig through the ground with your face to find food, would you want small easy to move pebbles? Or would you want to move rocks the same size as, or bigger, than your head?

As I said in a previous reply - To each their own. Different tanks = different needs. It would be nice if there were universal solutions for every situation but, that's just not how it goes.

Regardless, I learned a lot from this thread too, so thanks all'

 

[Fishiemang]

You can use an old filter sponge if ya like, but the gravel is where it's at. Some use this method. I find it to be limiting myself. While good for oxygen dependant bacterias, you also need anaerobic, and this is where the gravel comes into play.

For the worry of sludge buildup, get snails, as some species burrow through the substrate cleaning up to the bottom. Trumpet snails are one that you may be able to get free at your local.pet store, as they are considered a pest. I love them. I take all the free snails they'll give me. They keep the tank clean as a whistle. (One fun fact is also some snails will find their way into your filter and.keep your media clean as well! Even canister.filters)

Another option for limiting waste buildup is placing small aeration discs under your substrate. A few well placed discs or stones will keep that buildup to a minimum. Think.of a.lake. Ever opened your eyes under water? Have ya seen them sporadic spots of bubbles coming up. Recreate that look, but minus the gas release. Just oxygenation, and a.cool added authenticity.

Again, feeding is also a MAJOR part of keeping a tank clean. The more you feed, the more the fish produce waste. In nature, how often are fish fed routinely 2 or 3 times a day? Never. They scavenge for their daily meal. They may go days without eating. They have evolved to live this way. I'm not saying starve the fish, but, limit feeding. You will.cut down on all that waste that becomes sludge.

I have an under gravel filter in my planted 30 gallon. The roots show under the tank. No sludge buildup. No gravel vac for well over a year. My concern was not buildup, but idle water pockets. Has not happened. Will it? Who knows. That tank has a bunch of thriving molly babies in it right now. No issues. I recently figured out why the hair algae bloom happened. Somehow the tank heater warmed the tank to 85 degrees. Got that back down to 79. Fish are much happier now.

 

[Fishiemang]

Most of us seed our tanks. I keep extra sponges in all of my ani’s just for that purpose. Not all tanks can be heavily planted. Depends on the fish you have. For instance, my goldfish eat plants like salad. There is no one size fits all, I’m afraid.

A fast growing plant.like water wisteria.

I have a heavily planted 10 gallon. Has dwarf grass thick like a lawn, with a sand bottom. You can, in fact, plant any tank. Some fish overwhelm plants, and I get that, but it's a matter of finding the ones they will leave alone with the ones they'll eat. I am.currently in that process in my 75. Got a few ideas on what will work, and have begun that process.