A Wild Idea, Would It Work?

[ColR1948]

Thanks for the reply, finally someone answered lol, yes I did leave it, so I'll test again tomorrow.

 

[ColR1948]

A bit disappointing, I did a test this morning and the Ammonia was still 0.50 I'm not sure now what to do, if to abandon the idea or carry on and give it a chance.

But another thought crossed my mind but I think it I'll do some research first, it is related to this but slightly different.

 

[ColR1948]

Well after a fair bit of research I found something of interest.



There are several species of Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria and many strains among those species.

Temperature

The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.

No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)

Nitrobacter is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.

pH

The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state.

This may also answer a lot of questions we read in the threads/topics why spikes occur as well.

A thought on the above, I notice the growth rate is decreased at low temperatures, so again another thought for the Coldwater Aquarist.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264. Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998.

Download PDF File

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of theProteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

In water, ammonia occurs in two forms, which together are called total ammonia nitrogen, or TAN. Chemically, these two forms are represented as NH[sub]4[/sub][sup]+[/sup] and NH[sub]3[/sub]. NH[sub]4[/sub][sup]+[/sup] is called ionized ammonia because it has a positive electrical charge, and NH[sub]3[/sub] is called un-ionized ammonia (UIA) because it has no charge. This difference is important to know because NH[sub]3[/sub], un-ionized ammonia, is the form more toxic to fish. Both water temperature and pH affect which form of ammonia is predominant at any given time in an aquatic system.

From http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031

Nitrification in a Biofilm at Low pH Values: Role of In Situ Microenvironments and Acid Tolerance

Abstract

The sensitivity of nitrifying bacteria to acidic conditions is a well-known phenomenon and generally attributed to the lack and/or toxicity of substrates (NH[sub]3[/sub] and HNO[sub]2[/sub]) with decreasing pHs. In contrast, we observed strong nitrification at a pH around 4 in biofilms grown on chalk particles and investigated the following hypotheses: the presence of less acidic microenvironments and/or the existence of acid-tolerant nitrifiers. Microelectrode measurements (in situ and under various experimental conditions) showed no evidence of a neutral microenvironment, either within the highly active biofilm colonizing the chalk surface or within a control biofilm grown on a nonbuffering (i.e., sintered glass) surface under acidic pH. A 16S rRNA approach (clone libraries and fluorescence in situ hybridizations) did not reveal uncommon nitrifying (potentially acid-tolerant) strains. Instead, we found a strongly acidic microenvironment, evidence for a clear adaptation to the low pH in situ, and the presence of nitrifying populations related to subgroups with low K[sub]m[/sub]s for ammonia (Nitrosopira spp., Nitrosomonas oligotropha, and Nitrospira spp.). Acid-consuming (chalk dissolution) and acid-producing (ammonia oxidation) processes are equilibrated on a low-pH steady state that is controlled by mass transfer limitation through the biofilm. Strong affinity to ammonia and possibly the expression of additional functions, e.g., ammonium transporters, are adaptations that allow nitrifiers to cope with acidic conditions in biofilms and other habitats.

Conclusions.There is no evidence for either the conducive microenvironment hypothesis or the common existence of specific groups of acid-tolerant nitrifying bacteria. Instead, physiological adaptations to low pH could be shown for various AOB and NOB. Under acidic conditions, subgroups of nitrifiers, such as Nitrosospira spp., N. oligotropha, and Nitrospira spp., seem to profit from their strong substrate affinity. The adaptation process is slow and possibly linked to the expression of additional cellular functions, e.g., ammonium transporters.

The research paper can be found In the Journal of Applied and Environmental Microbiology here http/aem.asm.org/c.../72/6/4283.full

1. Start off with slightly or moderately alkaline water and a properly working bioflter, add your nitrifying bacteria culture and some guppies, mollies or any durable livebearer or other low cost aquarium fish. Medium sized goldfish may also be used after a week or so, giving time for the nitrifying bacteria to get a good start.
2. Wait at least 4-6 weeks and build up the bioload in your tank.
3. At about 8 weeks, take your readings (of course you have been monitoring your ammonia and nitrites all along) and if you have done things right, you should be at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.
4. So now is about the time you want to start lowering your pH.
5. Bring pH to slightly alkaline, near neuter and hold it there for about 2-4 weeks.
6. Monitor your ammonia and nitrites*.
7. Now bring your pH to 6.8, and again, hold it here for about 2-4 weeks.
8. Monitor your ammonium and nitrites*.
9. Every 2-4 weeks, continue decreasing on the pH scale 0.2 points and monitoring ammonium and nitrates*.
*Note: that most ammonia and nitrite test kits may not work as pH decreases. Check Elos and Sera who have some good specialized kits, both are available online here in the U.S.
http/elosusa.com/s...monium-test-kit
http/www.aquacave....t-kit-2213.html
10. It takes time, several months, but the bacterial culture growing in your biofilter will first slow down and then by means of a selective reproduction process, the culture will adapt to the more acid pH and finally, start increasing in numbers.
11. You will finally have a biofilter which is functional in a relatively acid environment.

Now, as I wanted Dr. Hovanec to provide us with some straight answers, I went ahead and formulated just 3 questions that summarize this matter in a very simple way.
This is our correspondence:
On Jul 5, 2011, at 12:24 AM, Edgar R. wrote:
“Hi Dr. Hovanec.
Introduction deleted.
One of our main issues:
1. How to get biofilter working at low pH?
2. Can nitrifying bacteria adapt somehow to low pH (i.e. < pH 5.0)?
3. Can a very slow adaption (several weeks/months), serve to help nitrifying bacteria cycled in an alkaline or neuter culture media, work in moderately acid media?
Hello Mr. R:
Thanks for the email - years ago (and I mean around 1986 or so) I spent several weeks exploring the entire Venezuelan Coast from Columbia all the way over the Orinoco Delta as a consultant for a company that wanted to build a shrimp farm somewhere - was a great trip. Before cell phones and the internet!
Please see my answers to your questions below and if you have any follow I would be glad to answer those also.
This basically answers the above 3 questions:
The best way would be to start at a higher pH and get the bacteria going then slowly reduce the pH. The bacteria will slow down and so you have to have lots ot patience and monitor ammonia and nitrite and keep the value below 2 ppm and let the bacteria adapt or select themselves for being able to work in the low pH environment. I am not sure how long it would take - probably months rather than weeks.
Also does your group tend to keep the fish in high humic conditions? Nitrifiers do not like humic acid or humic conditions so this is a potential problem. And if would be better to have a substrate for the bacteria to grow on like ceramic pieces etc rather than free swimming in water.
I have taken the liberty of attaching a few papers that show nitrifiers can be "adapted" to low pH values - 3.8 in one paper and it is interesting that they found large amount of Nitrospira as the nitrite-oxidizer which, of course, is what I showed years ago. So you could start with some of my One & Only as a seed and then slowly cultivate a low pH bacteria group (not mono or pure cultures). Once you had a decent population you could share amongst your group.
I hope this helps.&rdquo;

From http/www.finarama....8f742ef8160408a (You must be a member to read the forms at Finarama.)

 

[ColR1948]

@ Two TankAmin, did you see the name Havenec on the documents you posted? That is Timothy Havonec, he worked on a formula that was supposed to start off a filter where you can add fish almost straight away, he later moved the USA where the company trades under the name of Dr Timms. The product is called Dr Timms One And Only.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

His name is Hovanec. His products are Dr. Tim's (one m). I have corresponded with him several times. If you want more complete information on his career and papers go to any of these links:

http/web.archive.o...s_Currvitae.asp

http/web.archive.org/web/20061022185937/http/www.marineland.com/science/biospira/biospira_timeline.asp

http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/about

http/www.fishforum...othy-a-hovanec/

http/www.petlifera...im_hovanec.html audio presentation

http/archive.org/d...ratesPhosphates audio presentation

If you want links to papers/abstracts on nitrifying bacteria dealing with almost every aspect, I have over 100 bookmarked that I have read. This would include a number on the ammonia oxidizing archaea.

 

[ColR1948]

Yes I have read most of those thanks I'll take another look, just out of curiosity have you tried 'One and Only' I ordered a bottle a while ago to experiment, it has been shipped but hasn't arrived yet?

 

[ColR1948]

@ TwoTankAmin

The last link you posted was great, I listened to the audio, I admit some of it went over my head but a lot of it was very interesting and very informative, most of it was related to coral but he mentions reef tanks and the way bacteria works.
Also a lot of what we read on these forums he contradicts to some extent, even though he spoke coral and reef tanks I would like to hear more of him talking on the common freshwater systems, but thank you for the links they are very good.

Edited to add/ask. A lot of what he was saying related to Coral systems but can or do you know if also relates to freshwater systems?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The first of the two audio files might interest you more. It was a commercial type internet radio broadcast, so it has some ads at the begiining and in the middle- skip through them
http://www.podtunecast.com/Aquariumania_022_TimothyHovanec.mp3

 

[ColR1948]

Thanks for posting that it was great, I could have listened to more. I wish a lot more would listen to this and read more on what he is doing and saying, I also think this section isn't read as much as the general tropical, there is stuff here that relates to a lot of the questions often asked.

He said something in the above audio file/s that struck me a while ago and it is so true, the amount of people that overdose with the products, my own view is we/they think in human terms, so 5m, 10m, 25m or a cap full doesn't seem enough so they add a few more thinking it will speed up the process, I have been guilty of it myself.
So for anyone who hasn't listened or don't want to, he actually said he has seen where people have overdosed with chemicals and killed the fish, where as if they had stuck to the instructions and added the correct amount the fish would have lived plus the treatment would have worked.

Thanks again for posting and anymore you have feel free to put it up, I for one am very grateful.

 

[Zikofski]

hmm this has been very interesting to read and very fascinating, again like you said Col, overdosing is a surprise to me that it will kill, and too i have done this before, maybe this topic should be moved and maybe pinned if it answers a lot of your questions?

 

[ColR1948]

There was another interesting part that he mentions and I've often seen it posted on forums where people have added matured tank water thinking that will cycle the new tank.
A lot say don't bother as it is a waste of time the filter is the bit you need to get going to cycle the tank, well that is partly true, but from what he says there is a different type of bacteria in the water to what is in the media in the filter so adding some water can be beneficial to an extent, at least from what I understood him to say.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Personally, I do both. I add some tank water and I move some media to my quarantine tank. Mostly I do it because I don't keep the quarantine tank up and running constantly, and adding all fresh tap water would be too different (I think) from the tank conditions. So I add 50% tank water and 50% tap water. Then, I steal more filter media than I think will be necessary for the bioload going into the tank, so there are no spikes. But, I think there is far more benefit to the tank water than merely the nitrifying bacteria. The entire biofilm of the established tank is essential for certain species (or at least so it would seem, with such fish that require being added to an "established" aquarium, not just a cycled one). So, I figure the tank water will help to mature the tank, not just the filter. I also add a bit of hardscape as well. Both to decorate the QT, and provide cover, but also to promote a bit of the "maturing" whatever that may be....