A Difficult Situation

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So basically, i'm having a hard time deciding what to do with my friends dog.

My friend in question used to be my neighbour, but about 4months ago she moved away to a different town and i hadn't seen her for quite a while, but the other day i popped down for a visit. The reason why i visited her was because i got her into fishkeeing about 6-8months or so ago, i advised her on many areas of fishkeeping and gave her lots of info on keeping fish and stuff and she has done really well- when she first started out in fishkeeping, i gave her one of my male guppys so she could breed her females. Since then the male has fathered many fry, so i went down there the other day to swap her male with one of my unrelated females so he wouldn't inbred with his offspring.

Well anyway, her fish were doing pretty good and i got the guppy swap done and dusted, but i couldn't but help notice her dog which is a young female staffie.

The dogs story is like this. While my friend was still living in my town, she decided one day to get a dog and ended up choosing a female staffie puppie. This dog is the sweetest little thing ever, but like any puppy she is not always perfect at times and causes trouble.
My first concerns were sparked when my friend was training this dog and teaching it the acceptable behavior it is allowed to do. My friend has a little girl, she is only a toddler, and the puppy was often too boisterous around my friends daughter, once or twice it bit her daughter so my friend hit the dog. At the time i thought this was fair enough.
But then my friend started to hit the dog for more minor offences, like the dog would be running around with bags of energy and would accidently knock my friends daughter over. My friend hit the dog for this too. (by the way, the dog no longer bothers the child now).

But then my friend starting hitting it a lot, for just lots of little things, like it wouldn't sit in its bed or wouldn't come toher when she called, or tried to chase cats in the garden etc. I was quite concerned about this, but when i visited my friend one day i was relieved to hear that she had decided she wouldn't hit the dog anymore, saying that apparently the dog had started to cower around her and shake, and my friend felt really guilty about this so decided to put a stop to the dog hitting. So i thought the dog hitting thing was done with and at an end and i wouldn't have to raise the issue with my friend, and for a while it did seem to stop for a long time.

But then a couple of days ago, i visited my friend because of the guppy thing (plus i hadn't seen her in 4months and seen her new place). We were chatting away next to her fish tank in the kitchen when the dog started barking, my friend imediately went and hit the dog and told it to shut up, but then the dog barked again a few moments later and she hit and shouted at it again, and then the same thing happened again moments after that and the dog got hit and shouted at a third time. When i say "hit", my friend hits the dog very/quite hard on the head. The dog actually cowed before she hit it the third time.

I was not impressed at this, i thought my friend had stopped hitting her dog, but it seems she taken it up again and in a big way, and for pretty much anything the dog does mildly annoying it seems. I don't think this is right way to train the dog, its not right at all. But i don't know how to raise the issue with my friend, as afterall she is my friend and i don't want to cause her offense as she's actually a very nice person other than that.

The other problem is just the way they bring the dog up in general. Its still a puppy really in many respects even though its a fully mature staffie. My friend and her boyfriend shower no love nor attention on the dog. When my friend used to live near me, she had a large/ish garden the dog could run around in, but now in their new home the dog has no garden to run around in and it just sits in its bed all day looking generally very bored and unhappy.
I know my friend can be very affectionate towards animals on the other hand though, when she comes down to my house she showers attention on my rats (she's a big fan of rats), talking to them and stroking them and generally making all sorts of loving noises and fussing over them etc etc. But when she's around the dog, its like she practically ignores it, not once while i was at her place did she show any loving treatment or acknowledgement towards the dogs existance like playing with it, talking kindly to it or stroking it etc.
Other than that, she looks after the dog very well- it gets walked often and fed a good diet and generally looks quite (physically/visably) healthy. My friends boyfriend doesn't hit the dog (at least i haven't seen him do it yet), but he is just the same in that he is not affectionate towards it all now days (although he used to be when the dog was newer).

I'm even beginning to wonder why she even got a dog though at all in the first place . She seems sort of attached to it, but not in a visable loving way or anything like that. I know she's a major fan of german shepards, as they are quite traditional in her family as far as dogs go, but that makes me wonder even more why she went and got a staffie pup instead. She wants the dog to be a family dog, however it is not in any way at all involved in family life.


I really do like this animal though. I want to say something or do something about the situation, but i'm not sure on how to go about it as a i don't want to offend my friend. If she wanted to get rid of the dog i would totally take it off her hands, even though i have limited space when it comes to keeping a dog, i've grown rather attached to it over time- when it was very young, i bought a whole load of toys for it and played with it quite often when i came to visit my friend (although there was no existance of the presence of the toys i got the dog when i visited my friend the other day). Before my friend moved place, the dog used to be a normal lively bouncy happy staffie puppy when it used to be in my town, but now it just looks "depressed", u'know? All the hitting and shouting and lack of nice attention can't be good for it.


What do you think i should do about this situation?

 

[SoCalMom]

I personally would get in her face about it. She isn't being polite to the dog, so she doesn't deserve you being polite about it to her. Hitting an animal is NO way to train/keep it obedient. I feel sorry for that dog. Hitting an animal says A LOT about a person. Animal abusers just p*ss me off to no extent

She doesn't deserve to have that dog, IMO

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I personally would get in her face about it. She isn't being polite to the dog, so she doesn't deserve you being polite about it to her. Hitting an animal is NO way to train/keep it obedient. I feel sorry for that dog. If she hits the dog around you, who's to say she hasn't hit her daughter in private? Hitting an animal says A LOT about a person. Now, I'm not trying to imply anything...animal abusers just p*ss me off to no extent

She doesn't deserve to have that dog, IMO

No, she would never ever hit her daughter, i know my friend very well and i know she is incapable of doing that to her daughter.

But with the dog thing, i would say that its not that she is hitting the animal in an intentionally cruel way (like she is trying to hurt it or something), rather she just seems quite intolerant of the dog and gets quite short tempered with it and resorts to using hitting and shouting to teaching it a lesson whenever it does something she doesn't like.
I think if she wanted an easy to look after dog, she shouldn't have gone for a staffie puppy of all dogs.

 

[SoCalMom]

I personally would get in her face about it. She isn't being polite to the dog, so she doesn't deserve you being polite about it to her. Hitting an animal is NO way to train/keep it obedient. I feel sorry for that dog. If she hits the dog around you, who's to say she hasn't hit her daughter in private? Hitting an animal says A LOT about a person. Now, I'm not trying to imply anything...animal abusers just p*ss me off to no extent

She doesn't deserve to have that dog, IMO

No, she would never ever hit her daughter, i know my friend very well and i know she is incapable of doing that to her daughter.

But with the dog thing, i would say that its not that she is hitting the animal in an intentionally cruel way (like she is trying to hurt it or something), rather she just seems quite intolerant of the dog and gets quite short tempered with it and resorts to using hitting and shouting to teaching it a lesson whenever it does something she doesn't like.
I think if she wanted an easy to look after dog, she shouldn't have gone for a staffie puppy of all dogs.

I took the daughter part out because I didn't want to start another rukus lol

Anyway...

Intolerance is no excuse. You said that she stopped hitting the dog out of guilt once before, correct? Then she knows what she is doing is wrong and obviously just doesn't care anymore

 

[venom2112]

i think shes just got fed up with it, you should never hit a dog or any animal come to that, i would ask her to re home it, i would vet any potential homes first though, don't want the same thing happening again, makes me sad to think of this poor little thing getting no love or affection, dogs thrive on that

 

[kewskills]

i know shes your friend however this is unacceptable behavior, you should tell her she is wrong and she should get it rehoused, failing this i would personally report her to the rspca for cruelty. this seems harsh however an animals safety and happiness is paramount even over a friendship.

remember she is in the wrong not you, dont feel guilty for what you want to do if its in the animals interest.

 

[l.michelle]

I do agree that you should talk to her. But I don't think "getting in her face about it" is the right approach. If you come at her aggressively, orrudely, then she could very well (and I know if I was in that situation) would turn and cut you out of her life, then you would never know if she stopped hitting the dog, etc. Perhaps you should just talk to her, and give her some other options, talk to her about positive reinforcement for the dog, or how she can deter her from doing bad things.

I think this situation is a very very delicate one. No one wants to be harshly told they are doing things wrong. No one likes to be yelled at or put down, it is degrading. So i think it would be best to go over it calmly with her, and make sure she understands that you aren't attacking her, and it is nothing personal against her, just that perhaps her methods for handling her dog should be altered.

 

[SoCalMom]

I do agree that you should talk to her. But I don't think "getting in her face about it" is the right approach. If you come at her aggressively, orrudely, then she could very well (and I know if I was in that situation) would turn and cut you out of her life, then you would never know if she stopped hitting the dog, etc. Perhaps you should just talk to her, and give her some other options, talk to her about positive reinforcement for the dog, or how she can deter her from doing bad things.

I think this situation is a very very delicate one. No one wants to be harshly told they are doing things wrong. No one likes to be yelled at or put down, it is degrading. So i think it would be best to go over it calmly with her, and make sure she understands that you aren't attacking her, and it is nothing personal against her, just that perhaps her methods for handling her dog should be altered.

Yea, that's true. When I say "get in her face about it" I don't mean yelling. That's the expression I use that means let her know you are serious

IMO, she doesn't deserve to be treated politely...though you are right that she might balk at being treated rudely

 

[angelmouse]

maybe you could try gently asking if she knew that hitting a dog can in the long run can make it more agressive. Just the fact that you have mentioned it might be enough to embarrass her into being aware what she is doing to her dog, as quite often hitting becomes a habit and people are'nt always aware how often they are acually doing it.Well done for careing and being good enough to stand up to it
Angel

 

[lljdma06]

If she's got rats, fish, a child, a life, a job, and a dog, maybe perhaps she's feeling a bit overwhelmed with everything. I am not saying that she is by any means justified. It is not nice to hit an animal, especially when it really doesn't know that it's doing anything wrong.

I wonder if she would be receptive to a vacation from her dog? There are days when my pets drive me bananas and though I'm not quite at that point yet, sometimes a few days alone, with one your pets in the trusty care of a sitter, makes you refreshed and better able to handle things that they throw at you when they come back from their vacation. If she's feeling like there's too much on her plate, offer to take the staffie for a few days, just to give her a break? I don't know, it's a long shot, but depending on her reaction when you return the dog from it's vacation, you'll perhaps have a better idea on how she feels about the dog. You'll also have some one on one time to really assess the dog for damage, physical or otherwise. It's subtle and if you phrase the request correctly, she'll just think that you love her staffie. You could even phrase it like you were thinking about getting a staffie and wanted to try one out for a few days to see if you liked the breed. B)

My friends and I in IL used to dog sit for each other all the time, that's how come I know so much about French bulldogs. You friend may not see anything unusual about your request, especially if you've never brought up the hitting.

Just a thought.

llj

 

[Erised]

While I personally would put it right to her and try to get the dog of her I can understand this is not the way you'd want to go.
Maybe you should go over more often again so you can keep an eye on the dog and see how it reacts to you compared to her. Give it the love and attention it needs and try going over to it and teaching it the way you think it should be taught <before> she goes over and hits it. Maybe get up at the same time as she does and just walk with her. You could also try and bring over one of those 'clicker' things that get used for clicker training and explain the benefits of that to her, + use it in front of her.

If however, she still hits the dog I'd really try and convince her to let go of the dog. Our dog was abused as a puppy (well, 'abused', taught by shouting and hitting) and would cower in present of his old owners. They gave him up because their son was moving to college and they didn't want to look after it because it would be too much work. We told them they could come and visit the dog any time they want (we're only a couple of streets away). Not very surprisingly, the parents of the family never did. The son (about 17 years of age) did come and visit once, as soon as the dog saw him he ran to his bed, cowered and we just couldn't convince him to leave the bed again untill the kid had left. It's not good for a dog to react like that, and it's not fair leaving the dog in a situation like that ... if it had been a child, would you stand for it? I'm pretty certain that, friend or not, you'd have gone angry at her.

I do hope you'll be able to help in some way.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

If she's got rats, fish, a child, a life, a job, and a dog, maybe perhaps she's feeling a bit overwhelmed with everything. I am not saying that she is by any means justified. It is not nice to hit an animal, especially when it really doesn't know that it's doing anything wrong.

I wonder if she would be receptive to a vacation from her dog? There are days when my pets drive me bananas and though I'm not quite at that point yet, sometimes a few days alone, with one your pets in the trusty care of a sitter, makes you refreshed and better able to handle things that they throw at you when they come back from their vacation. If she's feeling like there's too much on her plate, offer to take the staffie for a few days, just to give her a break? I don't know, it's a long shot, but depending on her reaction when you return the dog from it's vacation, you'll perhaps have a better idea on how she feels about the dog. You'll also have some one on one time to really assess the dog for damage, physical or otherwise. It's subtle and if you phrase the request correctly, she'll just think that you love her staffie. You could even phrase it like you were thinking about getting a staffie and wanted to try one out for a few days to see if you liked the breed. B)

My friends and I in IL used to dog sit for each other all the time, that's how come I know so much about French bulldogs. You friend may not see anything unusual about your request, especially if you've never brought up the hitting.

Just a thought.

llj

Yeah she does have quite a lot on her plate right now, she doesn't have a full time job at the moment but she wants one badly but cannot get one because her daughter is still too young for my friend to get a proper job, i think this often gets my friend down and makes her feel trapped in the house sometimes, she still has a very busy life though. I do think that sometimes she probably does take out some of her stress on the dog when she's finding life difficult/stressful to deal with and is feeling short tempered etc.

I think i am going to try out what you suggested, if i can convince her to let me look after her dog for a couple of days, it should give my friend a break and she might feel less stressed and more able to deal with the dog in a better way. Plus it should give the dog a break too, and i need to do more excercise myself so the dog should be a good excuse to get out of the house and go on long dog walks etc. Plus i've always liked dogs a great deal since as far back as i can remember, we've always had dogs in the family, but i haven't been able to have a pet dog ever since i moved out of home 6 or so years ago, so it would be nice to have a dog around me again if only for a little while.



Thankyou for everyone's input on this thread, i really appreiciate it .

 

[Lynda B]

It's animal abuse. There's no two ways to look at someone who hits their dog. They either hit it or they don't. As for saying she would never do that to her child, I don't agree. Violence is violence. And eventually, you'll see the kid with bruises.

Report her. Period.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

gosh what a tricky situation, poor doggy and poor your friend too. yeah she shouldn't be doing what she is but when everythings mounted up on you it's easy to loose sight of stuff.

i think llj's idea of a doggy vacation is a great idea, you can sort of sell it as giving her a break as well, one less thing for her to worry about. If you don't mind and it's practical I'd maybe try and take on some of the responsibility for her, possibly with the baby as well, you know offer to babysit so she can have a night off stuff like that.

now i may be completely barking up the wrong tree here so i apologise if i've got the wrong end of the stick, only so much about a friendship you can read from a few posts. But you've not seen the new place for 4 months, so have you lost/lessened contact with her a bit since she moved? It honestly sounds like she may be quite depressed, possible post natal depression and just needs a friend around. Try and get round there a bit more, it'll give you a chance to assess toe dog situation further as well.

personally i would try and do as much as i can to take responsibilities off her hands and give her a bit of fun/relaxing time to herself. while your spending tiem with her and the dog you can feel what the situation is better, then when she's feeling a little stronger tactfully talk to her about it. If you notice the dog 'misbehaving' (in her eyes) and being scolded with a smack, then doing the same again another time comment on how he hasn't learnt, theres a fair chance this will be greeted by her getting everything off her chest that's been bothering her for months about it, and then suggest some alternative training methods like clicker training.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

B)-->QUOTE(Lynda B @ Jun 18 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]1657737[/snapback]
It's animal abuse. There's no two ways to look at someone who hits their dog. They either hit it or they don't. As for saying she would never do that to her child, I don't agree. Violence is violence. And eventually, you'll see the kid with bruises.

Report her. Period.[/quote]


Not true at all, most people view animals and people as different. Saying someone is violent towards animals means that its only a matter of time before they start being violent to children is downright wrong, the two are not connected in the vast majority of cases.

I do find it offensive when people say she'll start hitting her daughter next, two people have said this on the thread so far, i know my friend and i know her personality and i am trying to keep my cool right now with people saying stuff like this. If i honestly believed that my friend was in anyway a threat towards her daughter i would not be sitting here typing away at my laptop, but down at the police station getting her child taken away from her etc.


The dog is a different matter. As i said before, it does not appear that my friend is hitting the dog because she wants to cause it harm or something, it is more like she is hitting it because she is stressed and short tempered with it. I totally understand how demanding looking after young puppies/dogs can be, particularly working breeds like staffies which seem to have unlimited amounts of energy, but i know that the dog hitting is unacceptable.
What i want to dog is somehow reach and agreement like this;
a. Get her to stop hitting the dog and start being more affectionate towards it, or
b. Let me take the dog off her hands for a couple of days when she feels she can't deal with it, so the dog doesn't get hit, or
c. Let me take the dog off her hands completely

Its just going about the process to reach one of these options that is the most difficult part. If she won't do any of the above options and just continues to keep it as she currently is, i will consider a more forceful approach with getting the dog a better life, but for now i want to tread carefully with my friend and see if i can get things acheived in a friendly, positive and agreeable way.
Afterall, its is the dog hitting, shouting and lack of affection that is the problem here, if she can change those things i think she could make a very good dog owner, she looks after the dog well in all other ways apart from these problems.

I feel i've made progress with my friend in the past though, so i do want to first try convincing her to change things about keeping the dog.
For example, when the dog was much younger, she wanted to breed it (she believed by breeding the dog it would make her more docile or something, plus she was interested in the money she could make with purebred staffie puppies), but i managed to talk her out of breeding the dog (i personally don't believe breeding female dogs makes them more docile, and i don't think money/profit should be a reason to breed a pet dog), and she's never bred the dog, so i feel i have at least made progress with her and the dog in the past at least there .