40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

[daizeUK]

For those of you who like to see photos, here ya go
 

 
Tank is at 28°C, pH 7.8 at start of cycle, KH/GH around 15°d

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Good stuff...  Might be cycled in 7 days!  Congrats on more progress.

 

[daizeUK]

Day 4; not seeing any change since adding another 16 drops ammonium chloride 24 hours ago.
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It looks like a change to me, but it is hard to tell when they are separate pictures under different conditions. I see the first vial at between 1 and 2 ppm and the second as between .25 and .5. But that could just be my screen vs somebody else's. Or it could be the lighting at your end. Nitrite looks low too
 
But ask yourself this. Where did the initial ammonia go? It was either oxidized and converted to nitrite, removed via a water change you did not do or it must still be there (I assume no live plants are in the tank.). Since it is not still in the tank, then it must have been oxidized to nitrite. But again, where is the nitrite? If you had converted most/all of the first dose into nitrite and part of the next dose as well, why isn't your nitrite level higher? Again the answer would seem to be you have some nitrite oxidizers at work. I mean lets not forget the nitrite test is the API one which really amplifies nitrite ppm readings.
 
daize- you cycled for over 40 days and got nothing and now you are worried that your tank isn't fully cycled in about 4 days. Please have some patience and some faith and wait until the full week is up

Lets see what tomorrow's test shows.

 

[daizeUK]

The initial ammonia was definitely processed to nitrite and then to nitrate, because we saw ammonia go down and nitrite up and down again.  It did take them a couple of days to get going so hopefully it just needs more time again.
 
I think the readings might look different because I'm holding the test tube higher against the test card in the second photo.  It was a silly place to hold it really because the value looks like 1ppm or very slightly higher, but I'm holding it against 0.5ppm.  The first photo, I think you're right, looks about halfway between 1-2ppm so possibly a bit darker.  So difficult to tell.
 
I'm not worrying that my tank isn't cycled in 4 days lol.  I'm simply recording my results on a daily basis because Eagle asked me to and I think other people might find it interesting.  If I don't see any change then I will say so, it doesn't mean I am panicking... yet!

 

[David J]

Hi Daize

I'm glad to see something has happened with your cycle. It must've been quite a moment for you to see the result after all your efforts so far.

 

[daizeUK]

It's actually a bit of an anti climax lol... because cycling with One & Only you never see those bright purple spikes because the nitrite is processed almost immediately.  Not that I'm complaining

 

[daizeUK]

Day 5, ammonia has dropped noticeably over 24 hours.  Nitrite is no higher, possibly decreased slightly.  Still plodding along, slow and steady
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

daize- why is the level of the liquid in the ammonia vial so low? I am not a believer in the use less water, use fewer drops approach. I think it is too prone to error.
 
- The water level may be off.
- Drop size variation is better compensated for by the average of 8 drops than the average of 4 drops.
 
I see the ammonia green as being lighter than the .25 ppm and the nitrite blue bing under .25 ppm?
 
Also, are you dosing Prime (or other ammonia neutralizing dchlor) with you initial fill or any subsequent water change? Remember SeaChem warns it is best to trust only the test you take right after dosing. Tests the next few days may give false readings.

A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away.

From http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
In light of this I am a bit more impressed with the nitrite numbers. Remember the discussion about total ions? At .25 ppm on the API kit your Nitrite-N is actually about .075 ppm.

 

[daizeUK]

daize- why is the level of the liquid in the ammonia vial so low? I am not a believer in the use less water, use fewer drops approach. I think it is too prone to error.
 
- The water level may be off.
- Drop size variation is better compensated for by the average of 8 drops than the average of 4 drops.

 
You got me... I've burned through so much test fluid in this long cycle that I started doing half tests to conserve resources.  I guess I need to fork out for another kit. 
 

I see the ammonia green as being lighter than the .25 ppm and the nitrite blue bing under .25 ppm?

 
That's a huge difference to what I can see.  The green test tube is just under 1ppm while the 0.25 colour is almost bright yellow in comparison.  I'm guessing that the problem might be colour variation on your viewing monitor perhaps not distinguishing between the yellow and greens?  My eyes, my camera and my monitor all tell me that it's closer to 1ppm than 0.25ppm.
 

Also, are you dosing Prime (or other ammonia neutralizing dchlor) with you initial fill or any subsequent water change? Remember SeaChem warns it is best to trust only the test you take right after dosing. Tests the next few days may give false readings.

 
No, I deliberately bought a dechlorinator that doesn't neutralize ammonia purely for cycling because I knew about this problem.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I agree... the color from my perspective is much closer to 1ppm than 0.25ppm.

 

[daizeUK]

Thanks Eagle thought I was going mad.
 
Relieved to see some activity in today's results, ammonia has dropped to about 0.5ppm or a bit higher, nitrite has risen to 0.25ppm almost exactly.
 

 
That's about as low as the ammonia got last time so I've topped up the ammonium chloride again.
 
I'm finding it quite awkward working in a range of 0.5 to 1.0ppm ammonia, the colours are too close to each other on the chart, I do wish I could work with the whole range of 0.0 to 2.0 ppm.  It would be so much easier to see what's going on.  I will go and order a different test kit to see if the problem is specific to API.
 
Seems that the tank is taking 3 days to process 2ppm of ammonium chloride.  Hoping it starts to speed up on the next one.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I just took  a quick look at my API ammonia color card. For one, my numbers are to the left of each color strip. Also looking at your card the top bar on the ammonia scale does not look yellow to me. My 0 level reading on the card is a bright yellow. I also assumed your color chart had the numbers above the bar not below- my bad.
 
However, I would have waited another day before adding more ammonia. I would have liked to see your reading zero out before topping it up. I can't rem off the top of my head, but what did you say your present pH and KH readings are? Just want to insure neither is doing anything to slow your cycle.
 
Iin light of the response you got from Dr. H. where it said

Lastly, the API test will read 0.5 ammonia for several days even when there is no ammonia in the tank so don't worry about that.

That would imply that perhaps your actual ammonia level is not as high as it appears? My impression is they are not big fans of the API ammonia kits.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Iin light of the response you got from Dr. H. where it said

Lastly, the API test will read 0.5 ammonia for several days even when there is no ammonia in the tank so don't worry about that.

That would imply that perhaps your actual ammonia level is not as high as it appears? My impression is they are not big fans of the API ammonia kits.

 
Well, I don't want to disagree with Dr. H, BUT I'd like to know what he bases this claim on - and what test kit easily available to the public (not just a research chemistry lab) he would suggest.  Is he using Salifert, Nutrafin, or something else all together when he makes this claim?  I certainly don't believe that the API kit is infallible, but it would be helpful to know what he suggests as an alternative and how we would know the difference between the "false reading 0.5ppm" versus a true 0.5ppm of ammonia.

 

[daizeUK]

It is very confusing.  I add 16 drops of NH4Cl to a 16 gallon tank, that's supposed to give me 2.0mg/L NH3-N.  But the API kit is reading 1.0ppm.  In theory it should be reading about 2.5ppm, taking ion-nitrogen scales into account.
 
At the bottom end of the scale it won't read below 0.5ppm even when there's no ammonia in the tank (according to Dr Tim's).  It makes absolutely no sense, the lady I contacted through API was completely baffled and nobody can explain it, although it seems to be a very common problem with API and ammonium chloride.
 
So I'm mentally converting a reading of 1ppm up into 2ppm, and 0.5ppm down into 0ppm.  It makes the whole process very confusing and very hard to tell where I am.
 
Do you think I should wait until nitrite zeroes out before adding any more ammonium?
 
TTA, regarding something slowing the cyle, pH was 7.8, KH & GH around 16°d at the start.  I will check them again tomorrow.  Lights are off and tank is covered to minimise light exposure.  Temperature is around 28-29°C.  Everything is pretty much optimal, if there is anything slowing down the cycle then it's a chemical inside the tank.  I'm very tempted to put some carbon in the filter to try to remove any chemical inhibitors, what do you think?
 
Eagle - can't remember if I posted this, but I asked Dr Tim's if they could explain the discrepencies with the API kit and all they said was:
 

As for the API test kit - do not have an answer to why it reads low ammonia when there is none but this is a very common problem - probably the most common question/problem we get.