40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

[snazy]

I used Tetra Safe Start to do 2 fish-in cycles and it cycled in a week time about so the product does work in a way. However, the third time I tried in a fishless cycle and it did nothing.  The tank still cycled in 3 weeks though, but I was only dosing 1-2ppm ammonia, but it didn't work as fast as the fish-in ones if it worked at all the third time.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I think the key for SafeStart is to keep the dose extremely low... I used SafeStart way back in 2010 to cycle a tank, and i dosed at 4-5ppm (ion scale) and it didn't have much effect...  The key to these products is generally, small fish stocks to begin... Unfortunately most people overstock initially... AND do a fish-in cycle.

 

[daizeUK]

That's interesting.  Thanks for the useful information guys.  Well, if the One and Only doesn't show up then I might give TSS a try.
 
I'm still really hoping it will turn up though.  I wonder what the future is for One & Only in the UK now that the UK supplier has gone under.  Will Dr Tims find a new supplier?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

If he's any kind of businessman, yes.  

 

[daizeUK]

Day 16:  still no drop in ammonia.
I'm starting to come around to the possibility that the BioMature is a bit suspect.  I was hoping to at least prove it worked, but anyhow...
 
That doesn't matter anymore because look what arrived today!
 

 
Bless those nice people at Midland Reefs, may they find speedy alternative employment.
 
I guess I must have got the last bottle available in the UK for a llittle while - or perhaps the rest of the stock will end up on Ebay.
 
But did it survive the freezing temperatures yesterday...
 
Tank is all prepped, I've emptied it (again), refilled it, dechlored it with API tapwater (no ammonia detox) and left it running with filter and heater to warm up.  I've also put the aquarium sand and a couple of ornaments back in the tank to give the bacs something to cling on to.
 
Tomorrow the Dr Tims goes in.
 
I think I will add 20 drops of ammonium chloride rather than 24, it occurred to me that the tank will already have a bit of ammonia from the chloramines so I don't want to risk taking it over 3mg/L.  The bottle suggests only 2mg/L anyway and it should be sufficient for my stocking requirements.
 
Was such a relief when the postman rang... this has been stressing me out!  I just hope it works now.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Hoping it turns out well for you!
 
If it does, we might FINALLY have a documented case of a bioadditive product actually working as advertised...  Please post pics of your test tubes as you go through this... pre and post dosing, if you don't mind.  I think the more visual evidence there is, the more convincing this is.  I'd like to believe that this stuff does work... the variables involved in making sure that the bottles are treated properly between bottling and use is the biggest concern.  Even if it works in one case, it may not work in another because it had been improperly handled.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Glad to see it came- don't forget to shake the bottle before adding it 
 
Eagle- I have posted on several occasions on this site that I have cycled several tanks using Dr. Tims. Twice it was used to get a base cycling at a neutral+ pH in order to work it down to the low 6 range for Altum angels. This was done to provide bacteria "cleanly" without having to move over potential pathogens from a cycled tank should typical seeding methods be used. I have also used it to cycle a couple of Q tanks in a hurry as well as fry growout tank.
 
The only difference between my experiences using it and what daize should see is that I have a private well and my water contains no chlorine nor chloramine so I do not use dechlor.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I haven't seen those, but that's really interesting. Do you have the link?

 

[daizeUK]

I added 20 drops of ammonium chloride.  Haven't added the One and Only yet because I wasn't sure about the ammonia reading, it only reads 1ppm.
 
Should I add more drops or leave it alone?
 

 

[daizeUK]

You know, not a single step of this process has been easy for me.  I don't think I've ever had to try so hard or learn so much for anything I wanted in my life.
My mother, rest her soul, was a great believer in accepting fate.  If something wouldn't come easily then she would say that it was 'not meant to happen' and she would simply stop trying.  She would have given up on this several weeks ago.  I'm learning that I have a lot more determination to get what I want... or she probably would have said I am just stubborn! 
 
Anyway, back to this new problem.  I will get to the bottom of this!
 
At first I thought I must have done the test wrong so I added 4 more drops of ammonium chloride to bring the total up to 24 drops as TTA suggested, then carefully tested the tank for ammonia again.  Same reading, 1ppm.  So that rules out user error on the test.
 
That means either the ammonium chloride solution is the wrong concentration (or it's instructions are wrong), or my API ammonia test kit isn't working.
 
A google search reveals that I'm not alone.  Lots of other people have had the identical problem with Dr Tim's ammonium chloride solution and whaddayaknow, they all use the API test kit as well.  There are two schools of thought in the product reviews.  One is that the ammonium solution is too weak and you have to add more of it to reach 2ppm than the recommended 1 drop per gallon.  I found this recent case where someone ended up tipping a third of the bottle into her tank until it 'reeked of ammonia' and still managed to get a cycle successfully started (though not using One and Only)  http/www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/106118-cant-seem-to-increase-ammonia-levels-to-start-fishless-cycle/
 
On the other hand there is a reviewer called 'tsu' on Amazon.com who blames the API test kit:
 

Be advised, if you do use this product and an API test kit -- the API test kit does not test for lower levels of NH4, only NH3, so your results on that test might show lower than what is actually present. This problem does not exist for kits from Nutrifin or other tests that specifically test for NH3/NH4.

 
I'd like to believe this, except that my API ammonia test kit states that it tests for NH3/NH4.
 
I'm still stumped, so I will keep looking for answers.  If anyone can help me out I'd be very happy!

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Although odd, i have read on here of at least 2 members complaining that their API test kit (particulary Ammonia and NitrAte) were somewhat unreliable. My API test has always done what i ask of it though, so i maybe biased. How much is the Nutrafin Ammonia test bottle alone? Maybe worth a few quid to eliminate a potential issue. I had to do this when first working out my tap water hardness, with the singular test kit only cosing 2-3 pounds.
I hope you get to the root of  problem though, i know myself how infuriating a slow cycle can be.
 
Terry.

 

[daizeUK]

Thanks Taffy.  Lol I think I must be near running out of ammonia test chemicals by now after two months of testing, so I'm probably due a replacement soon anyway.  I was thinking of trying the Salifert ammonia test kit but I'll have a look at Nutrafin as well.
 
I found another reference that backs up the API misreading theory: http/www.myfishcare.com/f4/freshwater-tank-fishless-cycle-almost-natural-method-ammonium-chloride-3/
It sounds EXACTLY like the issue I have:
 

Step 4:
Now we need to add the ammonium chloride. Add ONE drop per gallon of water and STOP. There is one caveat to be aware of. The API Master Test Kit does not test for NH4 nor low levels of NH3 present while using ammonium chloride. What you will see if you use this particular test kit is that your ammonia reading appears to be about half of the anticipated 2.0 ppm. This is not the case. You can either trust that the ammonia level is dosed correctly (and it is), or you can purchase a standalone NH3/NH4 test kit by Nutrafin or the Nutrafin Master Test Kit.

 
The weird thing is, I've emailed API previously about their ammonia test kits and they confirmed it does test NH3 plus NH4.  This is the information I got from them:
 

Our liquid two bottle API Ammonia Test is based on the Salicylate Method. A water sample is placed in the test tube to the line (5ml). Then 8 drops from each of the two bottles are added to the test tube and a series of chemical reactions occur within 5 minutes.

The first reaction is the ammonia contained in the water sample combines with chlorine to form monochloramine.

Monochloramine reacts with salicylate to form 5-aminosalicylate.
Then the 5-aminosalicylate is oxidized in the presence of sodium nitroprusside working as a catalyst to form a blue colour which is masked by the yellow colour from any excess reagent present which produces a green-coloured solution in the test tube.

At 5 minutes the intensity of the green colour is compared to colour chart included with the API Ammonia Test Kit to identify the level of ammonia present in the water sample being tested. If no ammonia is present no blue colour is developed and the sample is then yellow, indicating zero ammonia. Identifying the ammonia to the colour chart is referred to as a colour comparative test where the closest match indicates the level of ammonia in the water sample being tested. It is quite common to have a colour that is not a perfect match but between two colours on the chart, in this case the colour that is closest indicates the ammonia level.

The API Ammonia Test Kit reads total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). TAN is a combination of ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+). The top reading given in our colour chart is 8 ppm (mg/L). This indicates that the sample being tested is 8ppm (mg/L) or higher. For example a water sample containing 12 ppm (mg/L) would read as 8 ppm (mg/L) as this is the top of the colour scale provided.

 
I've emailed them again to see if they can help explain this issue.

 

[daizeUK]

Update: I got a response from my query to Dr Tims website (which I can finally access again), quite surprised actually as I wasn't expecting them to respond on a weekend.
 

As long as you do not exceed 5 ppm as nitrogen (which you have not) you're fine so go a head and add the One & Only and start cycling the tank.
When the test kit reads about 0.5 add another 16 drops.
Again don't worry about reach some value - just add the ammonia and let the bacteria do their job.
Lastly, the API test will read 0.5 ammonia for several days even when there is no ammonia in the tank so don't worry about that.

 
That's reassuring so I've added the One and Only to the tank.  A day and a half later than I was expecting but hey, what's an extra 36 hours to make sure I get it right after I've been waiting over 2 months already
 
I would still like to know what is up with the API test kit, though.  Why can't it read ammonium chloride properly and why will it continue to show 0.5ppm when there's no ammonia left?  If I find the answers I will post them here.

 

[snazy]

When you add ammonium chloride(NH4Cl) in water, since it is highly soluble in water, it makes a reaction, the product of which is ammonia(NH3) plus other substances. So I am not sure what that website you've quoted is talking about.
Also, as far as what's written on the API test, it does test for both NH3/NH4 as a total but doesn't test for each individually. The Nutrafin is exactly the same.
 
I am not sure why you have a reading of ammonia. I never did with API test when there shouldn't have been.
Are you sure there isn't ammonia in the tank?


I am also wondering, as I missed a few posts and not sure what the instructions are(and maybe the issue at the moment ) but does it suggest adding the relevant concentration of ammonium chloride to the amount of water in the tank which depends on substrate, decoration and thickness of the glass, and water level, so careful not to actually overdose it. Also, using drops is not so precise. Does it say what the concentration of ammonium chloride is in that bottle so you can use a better way to dose ammonium chloride?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

She added ammonium chloride to the tank, but at a higher concentration than was being read by the API test kit.  She was surprised that it didn't read as it should have.
 
 
The "Drops" from this bottle of ammonium chloride would be just as precise in dispensing ammonium chloride as dosing the necessary reagents with the API kit.