40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been doing some searching around and I do find posts on a variety of forums suggesting AIp kit and ammonium chloride do not play nicely together, However, I can not find anything concrete on this. the one thing I can sugggest is that if you really want to be closer to accurate in terms of ammonia that you might want to consider the SeaChem kit. It is a dual test kit in that it will test one way for total ammonia and the other way for just NH3. That latter test will probably give you more accurate results in terms of the ammonium chloride since it is supposed to add 2 ppm NH3 for each drop/gal.
 
I have had problems in the past with the API ammonia kit. I dose ammonia hydroxide into a tank, wait 15 minutes for it to circulate and then test and get a 0 reading. Now this is the opposite problem, but it is still a problem with trusting API results.
 
I have come to use most of the API kits as a way to show changes rather than accurate levels. I may not know what the level really is but hopefully I can see if it is going up or down.
 
Perhaps this video would be helpful in teaching us exactly how good our test kits might be. I shows just what the differences are between hobby test kits and a more expensive lab grade one:

 

[snazy]

I agree, I rely on changes rather than on colours, hence I even compare with tap water or another tank but when I added ammonium hydroxide in fishless cycling using a calculator for the volume of water(excluding substrate and decor), the API test showed almost exactly what I was aiming at so I've no reason to doubt it. The question is about ammonium chloride.

 

[daizeUK]

Ah I just ordered a Salifert ammonia kit before I saw your post, otherwise I would be interested in that Seachem kit.  It's twice the price but I do like the look of it.  Perhaps next time.
 
Better still I want one of those colour wheel thingys he's got in the video!    Thanks for doing the research.
 
In the meantime, I will wait and see if either ammonia or nitrite zeroes out before adding more ammonium.  If the cycle doesn't speed up then I will add a carbon filter to see if that helps.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I got curious after watching the vid I posted. So I went back and listened to the part where he named the brand of lab test kit and I found the site for a company called Hach. I priced the nitrite and the equivalent ammonia test kits and then the cost per test to resupply the reagents. Its in US $ so you will have to convert if you want to fig in local money.
 
Both kits measure -N and come with 100 tests:
 
The nitrite kit is $76.15 and 100 test refills cost $22.39. It measures using Diazotization Cadmium Reduction, and reads 0 - 0.5 mg/L NO2- -N. The range of the kit can be multiplied by diluting the sample water- a 1-5 dilution would mean the results must be multiplied by 5.

The ammonia kit is $80.65 and 100 test refills cost $63.22. It measures using Salicylate reagents and reads 0 - 2.5 mg/L NH₃-N. The range of the kit can be increased to 5.0 mg/L NO2- -N using deionized water to dilute the test water by 50%. The kit reads total ammonia and there is a chart and formulas included that lets one calculate the NH3 and the NH4+.
 
Shipping will increase the cost. So figure if you want both kits you will spend about $170-$175. By comparison I can buy the 180 test nitrite and the 75 test ammonia API kits delivered for $17.00.
 
Poke around the site if you want http/www.hach.com/

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That's pretty pricy!  I think I'll stick with the API kit which is FAR cheaper.  I thought the API kit used salicylate reagents as well for the ammonia...  Perhaps I am mistaken in that.

 

[daizeUK]

Just as well I wasn't being serious then!  Eagle - yep they're all salicylate.
 
Day 7.  Well the tank isn't cycled in a week!  I've got a picture but I'm honestly not sure if it's worth posting it up, what with the tiny colour differences on my API kit and the differences in colour presentation on your viewing monitors.  It also looks very different depending on where I'm taking the picture and from what angle.  So it might be less confusing if I just describe what I can see.
 
Same story really, ammonia has dropped slightly in 24 hours but still closer to 1ppm than 0.5ppm.  Nitrites have risen again and now look closer to the 0.5ppm colour on the chart.
 
I will wait and see what the story is same time tomorrow but I'm getting a little concerned that nitrites no longer seem to be dropping.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

They do. But there is a reason why one kit is 10 times the price of the other. But lets take a common sense approach here. If the typical aquarium test kits were accurate and reliable, would they not be used by researchers in real labs? Would all those research papers some of us have been reading and quoting not show under their methods sections that they used API or SeaChem etc. ammonia or nitrite kits in their experimental research? They don't.
 
If you investigate salicylate testing you will see there is a big difference between how it is done in lab settings vs tank kits. Rather than divert this thread any further I am going to start a thread in the scientific section on this topic.
 
From what I can tell from spending just a few hours looking into test kits, if one wants to know they are getting truly accurate and reliable readings, do not rely on any of the kits made for the hobby. That said, most folks can not afford what it costs to get lab grade test kits or digital meters/monitors. So we use what is out there and hope for the best. I did come across a series of posts on another forum which detailed how one can mix up their own ammonia calibration solutions to be able to check test kit accuracy.
 
daize- for sure we can see your tank is cycled to some extent. Whether or not ammonia readings are accurate, they do show that some amount of ammonia is being processed. The fact that you see nitrite confirms the ammonia oxidation part. And we can also assume that there are also some nitrite oxidizers in there. Otherwise your nitrite levels would have to be much higher. API kits magnify the levels. So if you put in 1 ppm of ammonia, you should see even more ppms than that for nitrite (I cant remember the atomic weight factor) and you have not.
 
So again that leaves me with the feeling that the API results are not accurate, especially in light about what I have discovered about aquarium test kits.
 
Also- all being salicylate is almost meaningless in terms of what it reveals. I am starting a new thread in the Scientific Section on this.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

My point was in that Seachem reports that Prime can show false readings when using a Salicylate kit.  If the pro kit is a salicylate, it too would be a problem - so there would be issues for both test kits, from what I can glean. 
 
 
As far going for the lab grade kit versus API, I can't justify the expense.  I can get an ammonia kit for about $6, or the full master kit for $24.  Is it perfect?  Certainly not.  Is it "good enough", probably.  I suppose I could spend the difference for the lab grade kit, but honestly, I am just not going to do that. 
 
In no way was I implying that the API kit was equal to the lab grade kits.  The point of my question was how they could make the assertion that the API kit would give a reading of ammonia when ammonia was not present.  I'm not willing to accept their assertion without proof.  Many companies will make claims that will put their product in the best light.  I was just looking for something more objective than merely believing their statement on face value. 

 

[daizeUK]

Day 8 - hardly any change since yesterday.  Ammonia reads about 0.75 ppm (halfway between 0.5 and 1.0).  Nitrite is still 0.5ppm or microscopically higher than yesterday.  Still feels like things are going slower than they should.
 
Please don't think I'm impatient, it's not that I can't wait for the tank to be cycled, I'm just afraid that something is slowing it down and will stop it completely.  I'm worried about the health of my bacteria.  I might be paranoid perhaps, but not impatient
 
Eagle - I agree about the API kit.  It seems odd that nobody has an explanation for this phenomenon.  If Dr Tims says it has happened to so many people, why hasn't it been investigated?  API sounded so surprised when I raised it with them.  They said "This isn't rationally possible, as ammonia needs to be present for the blue colour in the solution to form."

 

[daizeUK]

Day 9 - ammonia 0.5ppm, nitrite 0.5ppm.
 
Ammonia is still taking 3 days to process.  I'll give it another 24 hours before adding more ammonium, to give the nitrites a chance to catch up and to see if the API tube really will go any lower than 0.5ppm.

 

[daizeUK]

Day 10 results. 
Ammonia slightly above 0.25ppm, nitrite a little over 0.25ppm.
 
So the API ammonia reading has dropped below 0.5ppm after all.  I think I will continue to wait and see if it will reach zero.  Nitrite is clearly dropping too so that's good progress.
 
I'm really pleased with the kickstart that Dr Tim's has given me, I think I just need to make myself forget these promises of a 7-day cycle now, I need to wait this out and let it run its course however long it takes.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I agree.  The good news is that you are on the road to being cycled and are finally getting readings that show progress!  Fish are going to be a part of your future after all.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A fast rehash- 
 
Feb 15- Added 20 drops of ammonium chloride- tested ammonia at 1 ppm, NO Bacteria Added.
Feb 16- Added 4 drops of ammonium chloride- tested ammonia at 1 ppm, Bacteria Added.
Feb 17- 1 day with bacteria. No results posted. Instructions from Dr Tim to add 12 drops (50% of starting dose) of ammonium chloride not followed.
Feb 18- "Day 2, 43 hours after adding the Dr Tims bacteria."  No numbers stated but pictures show ammonia lower and nitrite higher.
Feb 19- "Further progress morning of day 3, ammonia is almost on the 0.5ppm mark and nitrite has dropped from purple down to blue.  I will top up the ammonia later today." Pic posted shows ammonia downs and nitrite down. 16 drops of ammonium chloride added one day late and 4 drops (25%) above instructions from Dr Tim.
Feb 20- Noted but not confirmed that readings unchanged from the prior day.
Feb 21- "Day 5, ammonia has dropped noticeably over 24 hours.  Nitrite is no higher, possibly decreased slightly."
Feb 22- "Relieved to see some activity in today's results, ammonia has dropped to about 0.5ppm or a bit higher, nitrite has risen to 0.25ppm almost exactly."
Feb 23- "Day 7.  Well the tank isn't cycled in a week!" "ammonia has dropped slightly in 24 hours but still closer to 1ppm than 0.5ppm.  Nitrites have risen again and now look closer to the 0.5ppm colour on the chart." How can ammonia rise from 0.5ppm in 24 hours when you have not added any?
Feb 24- "Day 8 - hardly any change since yesterday.  Ammonia reads about 0.75 ppm (halfway between 0.5 and 1.0).  Nitrite is still 0.5ppm or microscopically higher than yesterday.
Feb 25- "Day 9 - ammonia 0.5ppm, nitrite 0.5ppm.
Feb 26- "Day 10 results. Ammonia slightly above 0.25ppm, nitrite a little over 0.25ppm." I wonder what the reading might be in 12 more hours?
 
So the tank is clearly being cycled, it is close to being fully cycled, imo. Its barely 10 days. daize did not mess up badly, but she also did not follow Dr. Tim's directions to the letter. She added the bacteria a bit late having taken 2 days to get the ammonia dose to the 24 drops I suggested and which fall within the range suggested by Dr. Tim. She redosed a bit too much and a day too late.
 
Given those two departures from the directions, the potential problem with test accuracy, the possibility of tester error, the difficulty in interpreting colors in person (let alone in a pic on the net), and the fact that some tanks go a bit faster and some a bit slower, I would have to say things are going pretty well over all. And what if daize is correct and there is something in her tank/water that works to slow cycling somewhat? Oh yes, lets not forget that the bottle she used started out in California on the USA west coast. We have no idea to what conditions it may have been subjected along the way. It is possible that during the trips until she received it that some of the bacteria did die back which could also slow things down a bit?
 
My feeling is had the 2nd ammonia dosing been done on time and at the correct level, the results obtained so far would have happened less time by a day or 3.
 
A gypsy fortune teller told me that there would be fish in your tank pretty soon

 

[snazy]

It's the same with the tetra safe start. It clearly says on the bottle not to do water changes for two weeks but the first thing folks do is when they get ammonia reading...huge water  change, hence tank isn't cycled in the 7-14 day period per product claims because most of the bacteria is getting removed via the water changes.  It's hard following instructions when there's so many question marks and doubt and I wouldn't have done it right either but I certainly had amazing results when I did follow the instructions of the tetra safe product which basically was made by the same Dr. Tim as far as I know. I can confirm that the fish I had in the tanks using Tetra Safe Start did not show any ammonia stress signs, gasping, gathering in corners, or hiding, etc... while following the instructions and getting an ammonia reading at about 1ppm for the most part until it cycled after just over a week. I still have got some of these fish still alive and very healthy, one of them a platy, my common pleco, also my original 4 corys. All of them participated in cycling 2 of my tanks with Tetra Safe Start and it's been nearly 2 years. The rest were adult guppies I had purchased that died long time after the cycle. The only thing is that it did not work in a fishless cycle as fast as the fish in cycles and I still don't know why.

 

[daizeUK]

Okay I will post my own summary, from my notes which might be a bit more accurate.
 
14 Feb- 100% water change and dechlorinated.  Tetra Strip Test Cl2 0, GH 16, KH >15, pH 8.0, NO3 >50
15 Feb- Added 20 drops NH4Cl.  Temp 28°C, API liquid tests pH 7.8 , NH3 1ppm, NO2 0ppm, NO3 40ppm.  Added another 4 drops NH4Cl, ammonia still 1ppm.
16 Feb- Added Dr Tim's One and Only at 6:30pm after Dr Tim confirmed that ammonia level is okay.
17 Feb- NH3 1ppm at 3pm.  NO2 not tested.  Did not add more NH4Cl following Dr Tims email instructions "When the test kit reads about 0.5 add another 16 drops."
18 Feb- NH3 1ppm (half test).  NO2 0.25ppm.  Noted a slight drop in ammonia compared to previous day.
19 Feb- NH3 just above 0.5ppm (half test).  NO2 <0.25ppm.  Waited 5 hours then added 16 drops NH4Cl as per Dr Tim's email instructions.  NH3 1ppm (half test), pH 8.0.
20 Feb- NH3 1ppm (half test).  NO2 blue, about 0.15-0.2ppm. 
21 Feb- NH3 <1ppm (half test).  NO2 blue about 0.15ppm.
22 Feb- NH3 0.5ppm or slightly over.  NO2 0.25ppm exactly, or very slightly under.  Added 16 drops NH4Cl.  NH3 1ppm or slightly under.
23 Feb- NH3 about 0.75ppm.  NO2 slightly under 0.5ppm, about 0.3 to 0.4ppm. pH 7.9.
24 Feb- NH3 about 0.75ppm.  NO2 0.5ppm.  Added carbon filter.
25 Feb- NH3 0.5ppm.  NO2 0.5ppm.
26 Feb- NH3 slightly above 0.25ppm.  NO2 a little above 0.25ppm.
 
 

Feb 17- 1 day with bacteria. No results posted. Instructions from Dr Tim to add 12 drops (50% of starting dose) of ammonium chloride not followed.

 
I received instructions by email to wait until ammonia reads 0.5ppm before adding more NH4Cl and I followed them.  We've had this discussion before and I maintain that it is completely illogical to blindly add more ammonium chloride on the second day regardless of the current ammonia levels may be.  Their email to me seemed to confirm this and makes a lot more sense than those unclear 'instructions' on the website.
 

Feb 23- How can ammonia rise from 0.5ppm in 24 hours when you have not added any?

 
I did add more on Feb 22 since the ammonia was around 0.5ppm again, I did mention this is post #132.
 

daize did not mess up badly, but she also did not follow Dr. Tim's directions to the letter. She added the bacteria a bit late having taken 2 days to get the ammonia dose to the 24 drops I suggested and which fall within the range suggested by Dr. Tim. She redosed a bit too much and a day too late.

 
The email from Dr Tim said "When the test kit reads about 0.5 add another 16 drops."  So I added 16 drops which was how much they told me.
 
I really don't think I've deviated from instructions anywhere, except possibly yesterday when I waited to see if ammonia would drop below 0.5ppm before adding more solution.  Although it's really not clear if the API kit is malfunctioning or not, so I thought it was worth waiting a day to find out.  To my understanding the ammonia should ideally be dropping to 0ppm before I dose more solution.
 
I said from the start that I was afraid of being accused of not following instructions and here we are, right as predicted!    The instructions on the website are so vague you can basically make up your own mind what they mean.  On top of that I'm getting different instructions from their help line and inexplicable readings from my API kit.  I've tried my hardest to follow instructions but I really never stood a chance.
 
With respect, it's been 10 days since adding bacteria and the ammonia is currently taking four days to drop from 1ppm (or 2ppm?) to 0.25ppm.  I'm really glad that the nitrogen cycle is working but that doesn't sound anywhere near fully cycled to me yet.  I've endured seeing people come and go on this board claiming that their ammonia is dropping from 5ppm to 0ppm within a few days of adding some kleen-off to the tank and thereafter processing the full 5ppm in 24 hours within a week.  By comparison I'm processing a smaller amount of ammonia and there is little sign yet of the rate of processing speeding up.
 
Day 1-3: Ammonia 1.0 to 0.5 in 3 days
Day 4-6: Ammonia 1.0 to 0.5 in 3 days
Day 6-9: Ammonia 1.0 to 0.5 in 3 days
 
That's a far cry from the claim on the website "By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0."  But just like you said, a hundred things can affect the product en-route, the test results, water chemistry or whatever.
 
If I see the rate of processing start to increase then I will breathe that final sigh of relief that it's nearly over.  But I can't while there's so little sign of the bacteria actually breeding.  They can keep eating ammonia all they like but if the population doesn't increase then the tank won't cycle.
 
Just keep swimming, just keep swimming