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40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

Well, the instructions were to add to get to 2-3ppm, so adding a half-dose the next day would bring it up to 3-4.5 ppm (assuming that NOTHING happened), which is still within the tolerance he is suggesting of <5ppm.  So, I'd just do it exactly as he suggests.  If it fails and you follow his instructions, then its his fault.  If it fails and you do it your own way, then its your fault. ;)
 
True, Eagle.  Problem is, adding more ammonia before the first lot was processed is how I think I might have stalled my cycle the first time.
 
Day 13, ammonia still not dropping.  Total 64 days trying to get this cycle started now.  I feel like I really can't afford to let this get messsed up, if Dr Tims doesn't work then..., well I have no idea, I just really want it to work!
 
What bothers me is that his instructions for One and Only are so blasé.  Add ammonia, take some measurements, then add more ammonia.  Almost as if it doesn't matter what the measurements are because he KNOWS it's going to work!  I don't like it.  If he wants me to take this product seriously then he should have some decent clear instructions.
 
I have more faith in his "quick guide to fishless cycling" instructions which say :
When ammonia and nitrite are both less than 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add more ammonia to 3 ppm NH3-N.
That's what I think he really intends to happen, he just doesn't explain it very well.
 
On the one hand I've got TTA advising me to follow instructions to the letter, but I honestly expected the instructions to be clearer.  I have to apply common sense to piece two sets of instructions together here and like you said, that leaves me open to being accused of 'getting it wrong'.
 
daize, do you have anyone nearby willing to pass on some media from their own filter?
 
I'm hoping it works for you.  If it doesn't.  ???
 
You might want to consider turtles!  lol
 
Daize- you are mixing instructions.
 
The shorter set are a quick guide to fishless cycling which is written for this but allows for one to be adding the bacteria. The longer set has a section specifically on cycling with the bacteria. I would suggest you follow the second set. Note, these instructions assume you are starting fresh. So if you already have ammonia in your tank, take this into account.
 
Cycling with bottled bacteria or seed material from another tank is different than an unaided fishless cycle. When you add the bottled bacteria, the ammonia and subsequent nitrite will start to be processed right away. That is, there are enough bacteria to begin reducing ammonia immediately. One reason you are able to add more ammonia the next day is that whatever you started with should be lower. Even if the tank is not fully cycled, it can still process ammonia to some extent.
 
If you really want to know if your tank is processing- take an initial ammonia reading after you add the drops but before you add the bacteria. I suggest you wait about 30 minutes so the dosed ammonia has time to circulate before you test. That way when you test in 24 hours before adding the next day's 12 drops, you will know if the ammonia level has dropped or not.
 
Oh yes, do not forget the API kits measure total ions
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If you note, the short directions talk about testing on days up to 10 and then there after for a number more. The fishless with bacteria directions indicate you should be fully cycled in 5-7 days. (This could actually run a day or two more at most.)
 
I would suggest that you set up the tank with new water that has been dechlored at the recommended dose. Dose the ammonium chloride- 24 drops (16 x 1.5) x 2 ppm= 3ppm in 16 gals.). Remove any pre-filters, turn off the tank lights, turn off UV (if you have it). Shake the bacteria bottle well and pour it into the tank. Then have a nice evening and 24 hours later dose 12 drops of the ammonium chloride. You can test before and after you dose if it makes you feel better to know the levels.
 
Now do nothing but test until you see ammonia and nitrite both at 0. Then dose 16 drops and test in 24 hours. If ammonia and nitrite both test at 0, you are cycled. If not, wait for ammonia and nitrite to 0 out and then dose 16 drops and repeat the test 24 hours later. You should be cycled by then.
 
Keep your temp 27-30 C, make sure the pH is 7 or above, make sure the KH does not drop below about 2 dg (about 35 ppm) and make sure the water is being oxygenated.
 
The one caveat in all this is I can not promise you the bacteria has been handled properly from the time it left Dr. Hovanec's facility and it arrived in your hands. If it has been, it should work fine.
 
Using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Bacteria: The best and easiest way to fishless cycle is to combine adding the ammonium chloride with our Live Nitrifying bacteria. When used in combination, these will cycle the tank in less than one week. Again, do not add too much ammonia. We make it easy by providing a bottle of reagent grade ammonium chloride that is at a concentration such that adding 1 drop of solution to 1 gallon of aquarium water will result in an ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm).
 
The procedure is to add the ammonium chloride solution, shake the bottle of nitrifying bacteria well and add it to the aquarium. Measure ammonia and nitrite the next day and record. Add ½ dose and wait 24 hours and measure again. By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0.
 
 
Eagle- I am passing not to far from your neck of the woods next weekend. I am visiting friends in Wilmington.
 
Awesome.  The weather is great... plenty of rain!  In Wilmington, you'd only be two hours from ThatPetPlace...  Worth a stop if you get a chance...  More freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and plants than I've seen in any single location.
 
 Okay TTA, thanks for clearing that up.  I still think that it would be a bad idea to add more ammonia if there's been no drop, since it clearly wouldn't be working as intended, but as long as initial ammonia has dropped then I will go ahead as instructed.
 
I will set the tank up with new water as you suggest.  I'm not sure what a pre-filter is, does this mean I should take the sponge out of my filter so that there is nothing in it but the biomedia?
 
Technical questions ;)
1) How long does it take the bacteria to colonise the biofilter?  Is it possible for my tank to be 'cycled' while they're still floating in the water column?
I notice that the instructions say to perform only a partial water change afterwards and I wondered if this was the reason.
2) Keep temp 27-30 C.  I have heard that although A-bacs like it warm, N-bacs prefer it a bit cooler around 25 C, do you know anything about this?
 
Thanks again for your support, much appreciated.
 
Warehouse said:
daize, do you have anyone nearby willing to pass on some media from their own filter?
Nope, I don't know anybody around here who owns fish, except two goldfish stuck in a small tank at my kid's pre-school, those poor things have got enough problems without me trying to take what little bacteria they may have!
 
eaglesaquarium said:
You might want to consider turtles!  lol
Erm... thanks!  lol
 
The prefilter is normally something like a sponge on the intake instead of bare strainer. He didn't mean taking out media from inside the filter.
If you don't have one, then it's fine.
 
snazy hit it on the head. The bacteria want to attach to solid surfaces. The surfaces you want them on are in your filter, on your substrate and on the decor. You want to do nothing the first couple of days that hinders that. hence you take off any pre-filtration on an intake, you disconnect any UV as free floating bacteria going though a UV usually get killed. You turn off the light because the bacteria are photosensitive.
 
Both bacs do fine at those temps.
 
I would not be in a rush to do any wc at all unless things go awry. At least not until the tank has a chance to cycle in about a week.
 
Bear in mind that it takes bacteria more time to become fully settled into a biofilm than it does to just begin oxidizing ammonia and nitrite. During a fishless cycle things are much less involved/intertwined than they ultimately become in a fully established tank. There are many other microorganisms at work and sharing and creating the biofilm. The longer one has the tank cycled and stocked, the more established everything will get.
 
Well... I don't know what to say really.
 
I ordered the Dr Tims on 5th February and it's now a week later so I'm starting to wonder where it is.
 
On the Midland Reefs website:
We are sorry to announce that, as of 3pm on the 6th of February 2013,
Midland Reefs Ltd. has been declared insolvent and ceased trading.

 
Looks like they updated their stock list when I enquired, just so they could take my £17 and run.
 
This couldn't get much stranger (nor harder on you Daize)!
 
Well dang. If I thought I could send you a bottle and control the temp I would. But I am sure even if i can keep the temp safe during the journey UK customs would likely stop it or some such nonsense and then let it sit without a care before you could fetch it.
 
So I will offer the next best alternative.
Tetra Werke is located in Melle, Germany, and is the research and manufacturing center for the Tetra fish foods, nutrition products and water conditioners that supply a worldwide market.
 
I am sure Tetra SafeStart must be available over there someplace. It is a sister product to Dr Tim's since the patents on the bacteria both products contain is shared, in some fashion, between Tetra and Dr. H. I would suggest this would be the next best alternative. There is also an outfit in the Netherlands which sells bacteria. Their product is called ABIL. You can look here http://www.avecom.be/easycms/easycms/Abil I am know the product contains ammonia oxidizers, I am not sure if it also contains nitrite oxidizers as well but you should be able to find out.
 
Its too bad we are in different countries as I am about to sell 5-7 tanks which are fully cycled etc. and range in size from 20 longs to 40/50 gals. Alas....
 
"Road" trip!  lol
 
Well fortunately Tetra SafeStart is much easier to get hold of than One and Only.  Problem is, I've not seen any reviews saying it actually works, unlike One and Only which had plenty of positive reviews agreeing that it worked as advertised.
 
I was getting my hopes up, went out looking at fish and buying rocks for the tank today so it was with some shock and dismay when I saw the insolvency notice.
 
All is not lost yet.  I emailed the insolvency agent for Midland Reefs and she prompty replied that she still expects my order to be fulfilled and I should have it by Friday.  It might just be that the delivery is delayed due to the unfortunate demise of the company.  I hope!!!!   Cross your fingers and whatever else you've got for me :)
 
It depends where you look. I just had a gent who needed help regarding stubborn cycle issues and he had to do something in less time than shipping would have permitted. I had him get Tetra SafeStart as it was available in the pet chain store an hour drive from him. He used it and it did the trick. he actually dosed an extra 50% just to be safe as he was leaving his wife in charge of the tanks while he was away for 3 days. She had my number and was told to call if she had any problems.
 
I heard from him when he returned and he reported all was fine.
 
If you want reviews out the whazoo- type "Tetra SafeStart reviews" into Google- you will see good bad and indifferent ones.
 
You might want to read this thread from 2009 between a site and Tetra Staff regarding SafeStart http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html
 
And just an aside- there is a video about the Georgia Aquarium starting up a huge dolphin tank. The video shows buckets of One and Only going in, not SafeStart. Look at about one minute in.
 
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-enmYiaUI[/media]
 
 

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