New To Saltwater

Yuma · Sep 26, 2010

Hey folks, brand new to the forums, been reading through lots of the forum posts, etc. so thought I'd post and see what sort of responses I received.

I've did freshwater tanks for a number of years, and after taking a break for a couple of years, I had some birthday money to spend and found what I think was a great deal on new tank and stand and decided I'm gonna give the saltwater a try.

It's a deep 60 gal tank(48"w x 13"d x 24"h), so far I've added 60 lbs of dry sand, a Marineland Penguin 350 power wheel bio-filter and 150W heater. I set it up yesterday and added the first round of biozyme at the recommendation of my local fish store.

Currently I only have the one 150W heater, and it looks like I'm going to have to purchase another to maintain the temperature ranges.

Since I'm new to this, I think I'm just gonna start with a fish only tank. I really want to get into a reef tank eventually, but taking baby steps to start off with.

So, first step is to cycle the tank. I'm somewhat impatient person by nature so I went looking for ways to expedite the process, especially since I didn't spend the money on live sand. I was/am needing some structures in my tank, so I went ahead and purchased two medium sized fiji live rocks today. I'm hoping that these will help to jump start the cycle as well.

I'm getting conflicting reports from the 2 local stores. I'm thinking about throwing a couple fish in there to also assist in the cycle and get this thing going (did I mention I'm impatient). One store tells me start with a couple damsels, because they are hardy and adjust well, the other says, no, start with a couple clowns because being tank raised the adapt better. Be curious to know your thoughts and inputs.

Also, still working on getting salinity down a bit, not terribly high, but the salt RO water I bought from local store was 1.026. I've added straight RO water, and still have room for another couple of gallons, so will adjust accordingly.

Anyway, since I'm going fish only, I'm curious as to input on first steps to take to insure a good environment. Also, use of powerheads or not at this point, etc.

Any input that you can provide to a newbie is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Yuma

-Nemo- · Sep 26, 2010

Hello, welcome to the forums and the saltie side!

First rule of marine keeping: Patience
Go slow, research and take your time. Only bad things happen in this hobby when you rush.

How much rock (what weight total) did you add to the tank?
You want to use live rock to cycle the tank and in order to do this you need to have a good amount. I suggest AT LEAST 30lbs to start off with.

Don't add fish to the tank yet. The rock may have already started to cycle your tank, if you have ammonia in there the fish aren't going to do well. Even if you didn't add the rock, I still would suggest not adding fish.
Ammonia is very toxic to all fish (even in small amounts) and using fish to cycle the tank does unnecessary, possibly permanent, harm to them. The rock will cycle the tank just fine. And besides that fact, damsels are some of the most nastiest (in terms of aggression) fish. They go after everything including each other.

1.026 is not terribly high, if you plan to keep invertebrates you'll want your density to be 1.024-1.026

I would use powerheads now at this point mainly to just keep the tank flowing. With a tank full of dead spots you will have much worse algae blooms. I would suggest a couple on either side of the tank pointing in a way to keep a circular flow going in the tank.

I would also look into a protein skimmer if you have not already. It would be a great addition to the filtration system and does a much different job than your standard HOB filter that you currently have.

Is there any animals in particular you have in mind already that you want to keep?

Patience, my friend

And pictures when you can provide them!

Yuma · Sep 26, 2010

Thank you for the response. I certainly appreciate any and all input. My main thing is that I really want to do it right, and not just do it to say I did it.

Couple of responses to your questions, and maybe a couple more as I think about them.

First off, live rock. I know I can get it cheaper on the internet, but my semi-local (neighboring town) price was $11/lb so I made a "management decision" and decided not to throw a ton of money into live rock as I am getting started. My intention is to purchase some base rock from a local landscape shop to begin the small reef that I would like to eventually do and then add live rock as necessary to fill it out. That was my original intention. I spoke with someone today that sort of confirmed that that would be acceptable, so that's kind of the route that am considering. Certainly any input on the matter is appreciated, just trying not to break the bank on structure if I can help it. To answer your question, I bought 6 1/2 pounds.

My intentions at the moment are to just start a fish only with live rock tank. For the time being, I haven't considered the invertebrates just because I want to start simple. I figure as long as I keep a reef tank in my mind as the ultimate goal and keep that in consideration as I purchase my fish and the types of fish I purchase, I can add the necessary items as I go. To be perfectly honest, I really really like some of the anemones, fan worms and urchins I've seen, but I don't think I'm quite ready for all of that at this point.

Along those lines, I know that certain invertebrates and other reef dwellers require special lighting and the protein skimmer becomes an absolute necessity when you go to that point. I guess my question is, is the protein skimmer necessary at this point for a fish only tank, is it something that I can purchase when I decide to expand to a reef system, or is it something I should just breakdown and do right away.

I left room in my water level for the displacement attributed to the addition of the rocks so I know that by adding some straight RO water I can get the density down. Actually, I mistyped my earlier post and the density was supposed to have read 1.029, but I since added about half of the remaining RO water that I have and it's currently right at 1.025. So i'm fairly comfortable with that at the moment. I haven't actually MADE any saltwater yet, but hopefully I will only have to do that at large water changes.

I've read several differing opinions, etc. on water flow, volumes, etc. Can you offer a "generally accepted" gpm per gallon of tank? I've also seen some submersible powerheads, which would seem to me to be a little bit superior to the top mounted ones, simply from the standpoint of circulating water deeper in the tank rather than just on the top.

OK, this is getting rather lengthy, so I will close with your final question. The animals that I am currently considering are obviously some clowns (I have a 3 yr old daughter). I'm also looking at the angels, gobies, cardinals, and wrasses. There are a couple of different tang's that I really like. I am being told that I can probably only have one so I will have to narrow that down. There are several other species and things that I like, but as I mentioned before I'm working to keep it fairly simple to begin with just to make sure I can maintain a flourishing environment.

I've attempted to upload of photo of my lonely little tank it my pictures, so hopefully that will show up.

Thanks so much,
Aaron

Yuma · Sep 26, 2010

Quick update. Just added a 250 gpm powerhead I had left over from my old freshwater setup. It hangs over the top, but looking at the flow in the tank, it's at least moving some water.

24 hours in, water is starting to clear up, sand is starting to settle....

Add to list:
Powerheads

Aaron

-Nemo- · Sep 27, 2010

Yuma said:
Thank you for the response. I certainly appreciate any and all input. My main thing is that I really want to do it right, and not just do it to say I did it.

Couple of responses to your questions, and maybe a couple more as I think about them.

First off, live rock. I know I can get it cheaper on the internet, but my semi-local (neighboring town) price was $11/lb so I made a "management decision" and decided not to throw a ton of money into live rock as I am getting started. My intention is to purchase some base rock from a local landscape shop to begin the small reef that I would like to eventually do and then add live rock as necessary to fill it out. That was my original intention. I spoke with someone today that sort of confirmed that that would be acceptable, so that's kind of the route that am considering. Certainly any input on the matter is appreciated, just trying not to break the bank on structure if I can help it. To answer your question, I bought 6 1/2 pounds.

$11/lb is very pricey even for a LFS. I would still recommend adding more live rock if for nothing else, to get more bacteria and other yummy things into the tank. Try and see if you can find someone locally breaking down their tank. Most will generally sell the rock for around $2/lb that way and it saves on shipping cost If you can get a decent amount of LR in there first, I don't see any reason why not to supplement the rest with base rock.

My intentions at the moment are to just start a fish only with live rock tank. For the time being, I haven't considered the invertebrates just because I want to start simple. I figure as long as I keep a reef tank in my mind as the ultimate goal and keep that in consideration as I purchase my fish and the types of fish I purchase, I can add the necessary items as I go. To be perfectly honest, I really really like some of the anemones, fan worms and urchins I've seen, but I don't think I'm quite ready for all of that at this point.

Many of the invertebrates are not going to be as difficult to care for as you may think and many are a great help to the tank. Snails, shrimp and crabs are relatively "easy" to care and help to keep your tank clean. Things like them we call your CUC (Clean Up Crew). Turbos, astrea, trochus, cerith and nassarius snails; fire(blood), skunk cleaner, and peppermint shrimp; scarlet hermits, blue leg hermits, red leg hermits, zerba hermits, emerald crabs; those are all great CUC that you can have and don't require any real additional care. They are all just scavengers and will eat algae and/or left over food.

Along those lines, I know that certain invertebrates and other reef dwellers require special lighting and the protein skimmer becomes an absolute necessity when you go to that point. I guess my question is, is the protein skimmer necessary at this point for a fish only tank, is it something that I can purchase when I decide to expand to a reef system, or is it something I should just breakdown and do right away.

Skimmer is not absolutely necessary at this point, but they definitely do help.

I left room in my water level for the displacement attributed to the addition of the rocks so I know that by adding some straight RO water I can get the density down. Actually, I mistyped my earlier post and the density was supposed to have read 1.029, but I since added about half of the remaining RO water that I have and it's currently right at 1.025. So i'm fairly comfortable with that at the moment. I haven't actually MADE any saltwater yet, but hopefully I will only have to do that at large water changes.

I've read several differing opinions, etc. on water flow, volumes, etc. Can you offer a "generally accepted" gpm per gallon of tank? I've also seen some submersible powerheads, which would seem to me to be a little bit superior to the top mounted ones, simply from the standpoint of circulating water deeper in the tank rather than just on the top.

For the easier care corals, the accepted rule is usually 20x turnover per hour. So in your 60G tank, you'll be looking for a total of 1200gph. Would definitely go with submersibles... Koralias are a great brand, many members on here use them including myself.

OK, this is getting rather lengthy, so I will close with your final question. The animals that I am currently considering are obviously some clowns (I have a 3 yr old daughter). I'm also looking at the angels, gobies, cardinals, and wrasses. There are a couple of different tang's that I really like. I am being told that I can probably only have one so I will have to narrow that down. There are several other species and things that I like, but as I mentioned before I'm working to keep it fairly simple to begin with just to make sure I can maintain a flourishing environment.

Clowns are great, as are gobies and cardinals. Many angels will nip at corals (the exception being SOME dwarf angels, but they can still be a risk). Most wrasses are wonderful, they are some of my favorite fish. Some of them will go after invertebrates (like feather dusters and shrimp), however, so make sure you look at "Reef safe" ones of them. You might consider skipping a tang. The smallest will get 8" and will be a bit of a tight fit. If you absolutely want one, look at the smaller ones like kole tang, power brown tang etc.

I've attempted to upload of photo of my lonely little tank it my pictures, so hopefully that will show up.

I see no pictures Try uploading using a website like www.tinypic.com

Thanks so much,
Aaron

Yuma · Sep 27, 2010

Thanks for the info, I will reply in more detail this evening after work.

I do have a quick immediate question.

I found 2 large, 2 medium, 2 small live rocks on Craigslist for $20. Definitely better than my previous purchase. By my estimation that is probably around 15-20 pounds.

My concern is that it's been out of the tank for a week now wrapped in wet paper towels.

Is that anything to be concerned about? Or should I go get it and get it in the tank ASAP?

Thanks!!

EDIT: spoke with Nemo on the chat. May go ahead and get this and take my chances. The guy "claims" that is has always been wet since he took it out of the tank, but I don't know what that's worth. I need some more rock for my tank anyway, so I think I will go ahead and get it.

xxBarneyxx · Sep 27, 2010

Hi Aaron,

Welcome to the forum!

To clarify the situation:
You want a fish only tank while leaving the option to upgrade to a full reef system at a later date (many people go this route so its a good choice).

You currently have:
60 gal tank (UK or US? works out around 280L from the tank dimensions) - 48"w x 13"d x 24"h
Around 3KG of liverock
Bio-wheel hang on the back skimmer rated for tanks up to about 70g (based on manufacturers specs)
Power head (going to discount this at the moment but is useful to have).
Planning to use base rock to build up scape.

For a FO system:
You have the basis of a FO system already though personally there are a few things I would consider changing.
The wet/dry filter. These are extremely difficult to get in the UK so I have no direct experience with them. However I have been told they work exceptionally well. However on a marine tank I would always have a backup system in place. If it was me I would go for a Fish only with live rock system and let the live rock do the filtering and have the wet/dry as a backup to that. However this would cost a lot more to get running so in the short term I would add another HOB or canister filter.

As above I personally would recommend going for a fish only with LR system. You will need about 25-30KG of LR to achieve this (plus the powerheads to give you around X20 water volume turn over) and I understand the cost of this is prohibitive but it is IMO the best method. You can as you say use some base rock (I wouldn't go for more then 50% base/%50 LR, ideally 30%base/70%LR).

When using base rock it is important to get the right kind of rock. You need light porous rock that isn't going to leech anything nasty into the water and will not effect the water chemistry. If you get heavy "ocean rock" it will not add anything to your filtration. The best bet is to get "reef bones" (dried out liverock) or artificial liverock (you can DIY it but takes months to cure properly before you can use it).

Powerheads:For liverock fitration you will need between 10-20 times the tank volume in turnover. Most say X10 is the min but from personal experience I would say you want at least x20 or you end up with deadspots which cause spikes in water parameters. I would highly recommend korillia or tunze powerheads and these can be picked up cheaply second hand. Don't go for 1 big powerhead, its better to get 2 or 3 smaller ones to give you the x20 turnover as this creates more random flow and helps stops deadspots forming.

FO Livestock: Your choice of livestock sounds fine but your tank imo is too small for a tang. 4ft is not enough swim room for a tang. You may get away with a kole tang but I still wouldnt recommend it. Tangs are very active swimmers and 5ft is the min length of tank I would recommend (6ft min for bigger species).

Cycling: Going the FO route (with no or very little LR) using HOB/canister filters you want to do a fishless cycle on your tank (search the forum for fishless cycle information, there is a sticy topic somewhere describing the process). Do not use fish to cycle the tank with, there is no need.

If you use LR then the LR will provide the ammonia source as well as the filtration. The cycle with LR is often very short (matter of days) if the LR is good quality and has been transported well.

Converting to a reef system: If you go the LR route basically all you need to convert it into a reef system is some decent lighting. T5 lighting is the cheapest option in the short term and when done right can sustain most corals. Metal halide lighting will cost more in electricity and initial setup may cost more then T5 but because the tubes last longer the long term cost can be less than T5. it is also easier (less equipment needed) to get high lighting from MH over T5's. However MH will also heat the water up a lot which can be a problem in hotter climates. T5 also gives you more choice in the colour of the lighting which can be customised a lot easier then MH.

The other lighting option is LED but to be honest LED systems still cost way to much and are best used as a supplement to MH or T5 lighting (unless you have tons of money to spend on it).

How much lighting you need depends on what kind of corals you wish to keep. As your tank is quite deep you might want to consider MH lighting. Personally I have X6 T5 tubes over my 2ft deep tank and LPS and softies are fine under it. I haven't tried SPS yet but suspect these would be ok as well.

Other things you will need for a reef system are:
Good test kits and refractometer - You should get these for a FO anyway and use regularly. Make sure you keep a log of results as it can help pinpoint issues later on.
An RO unit - buying RO from a LFS is hit and miss (can't grantee the quality of it), same goes for buying pre-made salt water. Best bet is to get an RO unit and make your own RO and salt water. It does wokr out a lot cheaper over time too and generally within a year you will have saved money from having your own RO unit.

Hope that helps a bit.

Yuma said:
Thanks for the info, I will reply in more detail this evening after work.

I do have a quick immediate question.

I found 2 large, 2 medium, 2 small live rocks on Craigslist for $20. Definitely better than my previous purchase. By my estimation that is probably around 15-20 pounds.

My concern is that it's been out of the tank for a week now wrapped in wet paper towels.

Is that anything to be concerned about? Or should I go get it and get it in the tank ASAP?

Thanks!!

By this point it will most certainly be dead. However it could still be used and although it will cause a big ammonia spike in the tank at this stage it wont matter because you have no livestock to worry about in there anyway. Some people would probably suggest "cooking it". I dont have experience with this though so would wait for a second opinion from someone else first.

Edit: Nemo was quicker then me so sorry for repeating a lot of what she has already mentioned. Forgot about the fish. Would agree on the angles and a lot of the "full sized" angles are too big for you tank imo. dwarf angles like the coral beauty should be ok though there is still a risk that they may nip at corals (mine never has in the 2 or 3 years I have had it). Also from my own personal experience I no longer consider clown fish reef safe. My pair have killed a LOT of my corals by hosting in them so that is something you may want to think about too. As nemo said there are a lot of different types of wrasses some are not reef safe while others are. Generally fairy and flasher wrasses will all be fine. Do not get a cleaner wrasse as they do not adapt well to captivity and require specialist care.

Pearsondesign · Sep 27, 2010

i quickly skimmed this so not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but in my experience with damsels, yes they are hardy but whenever ive added them ive always found them territorial and also sometimes aggresive to other fish.

for this reason i try to stay away from most of them now.
i had 2 electric blue damsels and added a regal tang over 5 months after the damsels, they instantly set on it and killed it in the space of one day and night

humbugs, domino and chromis are all fairly friendly damsels to look into

Yuma · Sep 27, 2010

OK, so I went ahead a bought the live rock.

Instead of a 5 gallon bucket of rock it turned out to be a 3 gallon bucket of rock. It was wrapped tightly in wet paper towel and the paper towel was wet with, gasp, saltwater. I specifically asked and she had kept them wet from the day they came out of the tank with saltwater.

Anyway, I ended up with right at 10 lbs of live rock, whether it is actually live or not remains to be seen, but either way, it's red and a nice contrast to my existing fiji rock.

First round of water tests are in:
Temp 76.2
PH 8.0
Ammonia .50
No2 0.00
No3 0.50
Density 1.0245

Still determining what that means, but at least I have a starting point.

Added 2, 300 watt Hydor Theo 300 heaters...the old one was dead.

Here is a picture of the unaquascaped tank so far.

xxBarneyxx · Sep 28, 2010

Cool. The fact that the live rock was partially dead might actually work to your advantage in this case. The ammonia it is going to give off will act as a source for the bacterial colonies to build up in your filter.

Yuma · Sep 28, 2010

Well, day 3.

Nothing added today.

Water stats holding steady.

Temp 78.9
PH 8
Ammonia .5
NO2 0.00
NO3 0<.5 (it's really hard to tell)
SG 1.024

So, new rock from last night did't cause immediate nitrogen spike.

Patience never was a virtue of mine. May take a sample down to LFS tomorrow night just to have them run the tests too.

Think I need more live rock, definitely in need of a couple power heads.

Started thinking about lighting, not sure what I have in it, just what came with it I guess.

Also, sort of wondering if my bio-wheel filter might be working against my cycle...

Just random thoughts for today....feel free to add to it, if you have any for the day.
Yuma

Yuma · Sep 29, 2010

Day 4.

Took the water to 2 separate LFS for them to do water test just to doublecheck myself. Response from the first "perfect." I said huh? He says "It's Perfect". Asked for numbers...ya, won't be going back there.

Second lfs, a little funnier. She runs the test...says, ammonia, good, (ugh here we go again) nitrites, zero, nitrates, about zero, whoa...your water is REALLY hard....Yes ma'am, it's a saltwater tank. OH....let me switch to the saltwater side...pretty funny exchange. Anyway, decided my own tests are the best.

So:
Temp 78.3 (bumped this up just a bit)
PH 8.1
Ammonia 0>.5
NO2 0.00
NO3 5
SG 1.0245

So pretty much same as last 2 days. I do have some growth in my tank. I'm attaching pictures for perusal.

Picture #1 - a group of hitchhikers on live rock...or what's left of them anyway.

More Hitchhikers...not sure the orange part in bottom right...sorta looks like a mini feather duster.

What I believe to be brown/golden diatoms (it is covering about half of my first 2 live rocks now)

And so another day draws to a close.

Yuma

xxBarneyxx · Sep 30, 2010

lol. Never, ever ask either of these fish shops for advice about marine fish

In your pictures:
1) Type of macro algae. Probably wont come to much but may grow a bit during the cycle. If it does wait for it to get big enough then pull it off the rock by hand (this isn't necessarily one you would want to keep).
2) Looks like a type of sponge.
3) Diatoms/algae, once they get a bit bigger remove by hand. Probably going to see a lot of this during the cycle but tends to burn itself out as the tank settles down.

Yuma · Sep 30, 2010

Barney-

I definitely got the "close to closing time, don't wanna be here" crew at both places. I've spoken to a person at the second who works most days that is very knowledgeable and keeps 2 or 3 of her own saltwater tanks, so I save my questions for her and ask most of them on here.

Day 5

Temp 80.2 (one notch higher on the heaters last night so right what I expected.)
PH 8.1
Ammonia .25
No2 0.00
No3 2.5
SG 1.0245

Ordered 2 Koralia Evolution 750s. Be here in a couple of days. Also got the lights on the timer finally so don't have to depend on remembering to turn them on and off.

No doubt the diatoms are spreading and getting thicker. Get those powerheads in and get some flow going. Very apparent that the diatoms are growing on the non-flow side of the rocks. Changed the little powerhead I have in there to change the flow a little bit.

Some evaporation so I need to add some water. Was hoping to find some live rock to displace enough to fill the space. SG about where I want it so I hate to add straight RO. Guess it's time to break down and buy some salt and make some salt water to top off. Maybe I'll find some more live rock.

Anyone have personal preference on salt and reasons? Keep in mind this is starting for the forseeable future as a FOWLR tank.

Also, since I don't have a sump, I'd be interested if anyone has input on the hang on the side protein skimmers.

Thanks for your input.

Still looking for a someone tearing down a tank to get some more live rock.

Yuma

ben1987 · Oct 1, 2010

Hi, looks' like a nice start. I would second the recommendation for fish only with live rock. Best way!

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