Wow, Look! It's... Another Fishless Cycle Diary?

90F is a bit warmer than we usually recommend, as WD said. I have seen lots of variations in methods on different sites, including places that think things like Cycle actually work. When I see something that makes sense and has appropriate experience behind it, I will listen to it. A blog site like the one you referred us to, is much like any other blog site. It is just as good as the particular person's knowledge who posted it. I know that my internet provider allows each member to set up their own blog site so I guess I could become such a reference location but I would rather interact with experienced fish people and learn from the experience of the hundreds of people that WD and I have helped here. I know far more today than when I started here around 2 years ago because I treat each cycle as a possible learning experience. My 50 years in the hobby does not really count for much because it was mostly done with only my own personal experiences giving only limited learnings from my own failures.
 
Glad you caught the humor :D You'll find that OM47 and I are often the straight men and its others that have to lighten us up...

Which, being said, gets me back to the begin serious stuff.. The huge variables in fishless cycling, in my opinion, are:

1) The random number of initial Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira and their slight genetic morphs that just happen to be in your personal source water (think about it - you turn on your particular tap in your house and we count on the fact that these two species are so ubiquitous thoughout the world that you will be sure to have at least a few of each of them in there! Well, that's amazing but the rub is that you might get a dozen of them or you might get a million! That places each individual at a very different starting place on the curved exponential graph line that follows that individuals total bacteria count as those bacteria divide and multiply.)

2) The tap water chemical properties you've been given. Once again, as an individual in a house out there somewhere in the world you will be dealt a random card. Sure, the water authorities in the civilized world will try to give you water that doesn't make you or too many other humans sick, but the similarity stops there and if you got down to a lot of analysis of the water you might find great differences in all the different inorganic and organic free-riders that come along with all the H2O molecules.

3) The filter! Yet another factor we've usually too hurried to analyze and would be at a loss to explain to a large extent even if we tried! Yet of course this is by definition yet another humongous varible just sitting out there at the start of every fishless cycle case (we help with probably dozens of cases every month or two here in our beginner section) we watch a thread on. The variation is huge: there are members running little 20 $/pound filters that are basically pieces of junk that allow the water to leak all around the media or have the wrong types or amounts of media. There are members with great huge expensive external cannister filters sporting giant beds of expensive media and tightly controlled water pathways. And of course there's everything in-between.

And these THREE are just to get started! Anyway, my purpose in pointing this out is just to say that the level of detail (I'm one of the ones most guilty of this! :lol: ) we all get down to in tweeking temperature and pH and other factors really kind of pale in comparison to the other huge unknowns we are all subject to!

OK, getting back to our subject, *temperature*. The only really safe generalization we can make is that there's an increase in our growth rates as we move up through the reasonable water temperatures we'd encounter in fishless cycling tanks in homes. I doubt we've ever had anyone running a chiller on a freshwater fishless cycling tank just to tell us it took a year, so our cases would probably start with some guy in the Orkneys fishless cycling without a heater and with a broken window in his fish room. (all those cases have proved slow :lol: ) Then we work our way through all the boring average houses with heat and heaters in the tank and finally we're back to the question at hand 76F.. 84F.. 90F? Well, you're right, we know the warmer stuff mid-eightys up to.. somewhere.. is faster. That's been shown both from just watching all the hundreds of threads and also from the scientific literature (which some of us geeks read from time to time and others of us actually do for a living I think!) The guy who is serving as our TFF baseline currently is RDD, the writer of our fishless cycling article. He put in some quality time researching and summarizing many of the different articles and experiences out there starting way back at the Chris Cow beginnings in 1980 and moving forward. RDD's last feeling on it was that the low 90s(F) were a promising possibility. So that's a strong note if favor of trying it. The little bits on information counter to that came from another fellow, Tim Hovanec who's about the only guy we know who actually put some rows of tanks up in a laboratory and worked on some fishless cycling questions while getting his doctorate. Somewhere (and I apologize I can't remember where) in his several published papers and some of his interactions here on TFF, he expressed some concerns about problems that might arise as you go above 84F. That plus, I believe, a few random cases with really warm water that seemed not be particularly fast where the thing that settled me down at 84F. But as you can see, there's not a strong case either way, so in truth I really don't think there'd be much risk in trying any of these temperatures between mid-eightys and low ninetys if you want to. Just be sure and keep it right on your chosen temp so we will have a decent data point to store up in our minds later.

~~waterdrop~~ :)
 
Day 6 updated.

Temps dropped to 87, then to 84 tomorrow as to let both my heaters and water properly cool without having too drastic of changes.

Thanks for the input guys.

Hope my questioning wasn't seen as arguing or doubting your intelligence, it's just confusing seeing 100 different articles one 1 subject and each article says something different.
 
No problem. I was sort of looking forward to having someone do a rather warm cycle so we could learn from that too.
 
Sorry to disappoint. :p

My patience strong enough, but our 4 year old daughter is ready to pick out some "blue and yellow fish", so for now we'll go with whatever method works best.

Temps are at 84*F exactly right now and holding.

On my API high level pH test kit, the color shows up as a bright pink, which doesn't really fall under the given color scale, but it's hard to say it's a color that's above the highest reading on the card, considering it's 8.8 and dark purple.

Any idea what this could mean?
 
Day 7 updated.

Water is crystal clear, plants look like they're taking well to their new home. All is good so far.
 
On my API high level pH test kit, the color shows up as a bright pink
As far as I know, the high level pH is usually of an orange hue. I started out with a pretty high pH myself, at about 8.2, and even then it was browny orange and not at all pink. I have had it come down through the complete range to 7.4 (lowest on the card), and it always remains of an orange tint.

Maybe your pH is really, really high if it's pink. Either that or you accidentally added nitrite drops! :lol:
 
It's weird, the pink doesn't fall under any color scale on my card. The higher the pH, the darker purple it gets, so I'm just confused.

Bottle #1 in my test kit had leaked at one point or another in shipment or on the shelf, so I'm going to take it back to the pet shop tomorrow and exchange it. I'm thinking that might be it.

The results come out looking almost exactly like the pink freeze pop in this picture:

freezepop.gif
 
speaking from working in a kitchen (as a chef), most bacteria stop reproducing (or at least slow right down) below about 5 degrees C, and above 65 degrees C, although higher is needed to kill them, so reversing this (as you want the bacteria to grow, not die or stop) It would make sense that the optimum temp would be directly between those 2, at about 35 degrees C, which is.... 95 fahrenheit. although I have no idea of the actual prefered temps of the specific bacteria involved, does anyone know the scientific names of the bacteria you want to build in a tank?
 
speaking from working in a kitchen (as a chef), most bacteria stop reproducing (or at least slow right down) below about 5 degrees C, and above 65 degrees C, although higher is needed to kill them, so reversing this (as you want the bacteria to grow, not die or stop) It would make sense that the optimum temp would be directly between those 2, at about 35 degrees C, which is.... 95 fahrenheit. although I have no idea of the actual prefered temps of the specific bacteria involved, does anyone know the scientific names of the bacteria you want to build in a tank?
Yes, there are two species involved: Nitrosomonas spp. (these oxidize the ammonia into nitrite(NO2)) and Nitrospira spp. (these oxidize nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3)). Both species are chemolithoautotrophs, which are anaerobic bacteria that avoid light and are unusually slow growers. Bacteria that are "lithotrophs" (the name derives from "eaters of rock") are ones that process inorganic materials (ammonia, calcium, iron, etc) rather than organic (carbon chain based) materials like heterotrophic(eat living or dead organic materials) or saprotrophic(eat dead or decaying materials) bacteria.

I really like the very practical observation you've made about the low and high temperature points used to help make human food more safe. It is probably a correct way of getting a good general idea of the graph curve one would draw, although it might not help us much for the optimal points for specific species. Keep in mind that there are now estimated to be upwards of *150 million* species of bacteria out there (its truly astounding and mankind barely makes a feeble scratching mark in knowing anything about very many of them. I could be wrong but I think the rest of the animal kingdom is tiny by comparison at maybe around 5000 species.) Its quite difficult to draw generaliztions about this vast array of bacterial species, they can really be pretty wildly different (as we are beginning to see in that there are species that can produce oil products that can be burned as fuel and other sorts of really interesting stuff!)

~~waterdrop~~ :D
 
right, can't find anything on Nitrospira but Nitrosomonas apparently likes a ph between 6 and 9 (so most aqauriums should be pretty safe there) and a temp between 20 to 30°C (68F-86F) So I guess going up to the 90s will start to slow it down.

I'll see if i can find info on the other one. Might narrow the optimum temp range a little more

EDIT:

nitrospira has a wider temp range, going down as far as 15 C. and up to 30. So the range can be kept where it is. But it prefers a higher Ph. But I guess you're kinda stuck with the Ph,or at least it's not worth worrying about. (it likes 8 - 8.3, which isn't really very nice for most fish)
 
right, can't find anything on Nitrospira but Nitrosomonas apparently likes a ph between 6 and 9 (so most aqauriums should be pretty safe there) and a temp between 20 to 30°C (68F-86F) So I guess going up to the 90s will start to slow it down.

I'll see if i can find info on the other one. Might narrow the optimum temp range a little more

EDIT:

nitrospira has a wider temp range, going down as far as 15 C. and up to 30. So the range can be kept where it is. But it prefers a higher Ph. But I guess you're kinda stuck with the Ph,or at least it's not worth worrying about. (it likes 8 - 8.3, which isn't really very nice for most fish)
This is all a fairly well studied thing: The ideal pH for fastest growth in fishless cycles is 8.0 to 8.4 and the temp I like to recommend is 84F/29C. WD
 
Things seem to be happening.

I swapped out my nitrate test kit for one that hasn't leaked today at my local pet shop, and just for kicks I tested it at 5 PM (normal test time is 8 PM) and it came up in between 5-10 ppm. Because of that, I decided to check the nitrate levels and they've moved up from 0 to .25 ppm.

Normal ammonia, pH, nitrite, and nitrate tests will be done in an hour at 8 and I'll post the results then.

Exciting to see "something" happening!
 

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