Would This Be Cruel?

[JJ1234567]

I am sorry that the thread went off course ( dont really think it did, it was about space and cruelty?) . Anyways...I was asked what I thought in a poll. I backed up my vote with a short reasoning. When told I was wrong, I will defend myself and my opinion. That is just how I feel, feel free to stock your tanks how you wish.

 

[Flumpus]

given that an 11"x11"x10" tank is 5.24 USg and the average adult dwarf puffer is less than 1" in length...

and given that a drunk tank is probably 10'x10'x8' and the average adult male is less than 6' in height...

would you care to make any more specious analogies?

I'm sure this "argument" is over, but what I quote is what I was thinking the whole time with the 10'x10' cell thing...

 

[Rocker]

there's a very good reason not to keep DPs in a significantly oversized tank--it'd be exceptionally difficult to see them (that is, if you have the tank planted up properly).

it makes it much more difficult to maintain a somewhat delicate fish if you rarely see them. suppose you had a DP that would only eat snails and ignored any frozen/freeze-dried foods? how would you know if it was getting enough food? suppose you had 3-4 DPs and suddenly one of them was injured? DPs pretty much come in spotty and not-so-spotty, so it can easily prove difficult to distinguish between individuals at a distance. in an exceptionally large tank, one DP out of a group could go missing for several days without the lack being immediately apparent.

as for the comment:
"Probably starved because they were underhouse. Just thought they couldn't possibly be happy if they wouldn't eat."

DPs are notoriously difficult to wean onto dead food. This is a silly and insulting comment. DPs are also famed for their radical temperament change upon sexual maturity. Housing 3 juvie DPs in a 6g is not unreasonable because juvie DPs tend to spend most of their time together anyways. Housing more than one adult male DP in a 6g is definately discouraged, though, because male adults are known to be quite territorial. The transistion between these two behaviors must be carefully accomodated, but that's easy enough provided that one's watching their fish at feeding time.

Look, there are 3 main critera considered when determining minimum tank sizes:

-- a fish needs to be able to turn around
-- you need an appropriately sized volume of water to dilute waste/buffer changes in chemistry
-- you need to accomodate a fish's claim to territory

a DP can turn around in 5g, 5g is generally considered the smallest volume capable of maintaining a stable nitrogen cycle, and well, by the standards of this last one, we're all abusing our fish unless we've got them in tanks the size of our local holding cell.

every DP that gets to live in a 5g is a king compared to the space allocated to our larger finny friends. think of the poor arowanas, most of them condemned to 4'x2'x2' tanks barely as wide as the fish's adult length! and stingrays, who survive in nature by constantly hovering wide sandy bottoms, are generally only proscribed to live in tanks twice their radius--few of them getting even that. hell, even common plecos are getting the rough end of the deal when kept in just 75gs (18" fish in an 18" wide tank). and your Fahaka in a 6'x2'x2'? sounds fairly cramped to me...

why don't we keep these giants in 10 foot tanks? money and space constraints. so we double up on our filtration, on our water changes, and keep them individually.

Dp's are not notorius for weening onto dead foods, they take shrimp,bloodworm and mussel readily. There maybe the odd case where it has been difficult but not on the whole and I have never heard or experienced it being a major problem.
Your 3 criteria - yes 3 puffers in a 6g can turn around

the volume of water is going to be hard to keep stable and of a high quality due to the small volume of water and the fact that puffers are messy eaters and the type of food they eat.

The territory - 3 puffers in a 6g will not be able to establish their own territory which I imagine has happend.

This leads onto my saying that the size of the tank had something to do with them starving. If you have ever witnessed dps feeding in a large tank you will quickly realise that they all have their own territories which you have stated.If another dps strays then it will usually be chased or attacked. This is more so evident during feeding time.By confining the puffers to such a small environment then they will not have established their own patch - merely the dominant one would have done this. Therefore many dps will not feed out of their territory.Puffers are notorius for sulking and becoming moody. When this happens they do not feed for weeks. A puffer who is not happy with its surroundings or has not established a territory due to lack of space will stop eating.This is what I feel has happened in this case.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

there's a very good reason not to keep DPs in a significantly oversized tank--it'd be exceptionally difficult to see them (that is, if you have the tank planted up properly).

it makes it much more difficult to maintain a somewhat delicate fish if you rarely see them. suppose you had a DP that would only eat snails and ignored any frozen/freeze-dried foods? how would you know if it was getting enough food? suppose you had 3-4 DPs and suddenly one of them was injured? DPs pretty much come in spotty and not-so-spotty, so it can easily prove difficult to distinguish between individuals at a distance. in an exceptionally large tank, one DP out of a group could go missing for several days without the lack being immediately apparent.

as for the comment:
"Probably starved because they were underhouse. Just thought they couldn't possibly be happy if they wouldn't eat."

DPs are notoriously difficult to wean onto dead food. This is a silly and insulting comment. DPs are also famed for their radical temperament change upon sexual maturity. Housing 3 juvie DPs in a 6g is not unreasonable because juvie DPs tend to spend most of their time together anyways. Housing more than one adult male DP in a 6g is definately discouraged, though, because male adults are known to be quite territorial. The transistion between these two behaviors must be carefully accomodated, but that's easy enough provided that one's watching their fish at feeding time.

Look, there are 3 main critera considered when determining minimum tank sizes:

-- a fish needs to be able to turn around
-- you need an appropriately sized volume of water to dilute waste/buffer changes in chemistry
-- you need to accomodate a fish's claim to territory

a DP can turn around in 5g, 5g is generally considered the smallest volume capable of maintaining a stable nitrogen cycle, and well, by the standards of this last one, we're all abusing our fish unless we've got them in tanks the size of our local holding cell.

every DP that gets to live in a 5g is a king compared to the space allocated to our larger finny friends. think of the poor arowanas, most of them condemned to 4'x2'x2' tanks barely as wide as the fish's adult length! and stingrays, who survive in nature by constantly hovering wide sandy bottoms, are generally only proscribed to live in tanks twice their radius--few of them getting even that. hell, even common plecos are getting the rough end of the deal when kept in just 75gs (18" fish in an 18" wide tank). and your Fahaka in a 6'x2'x2'? sounds fairly cramped to me...

why don't we keep these giants in 10 foot tanks? money and space constraints. so we double up on our filtration, on our water changes, and keep them individually.

I suppose i agree with you there, the example of keeping large fish in large tanks is good. Personally though if i ever had a DP i would give it a 10gal, but thats just me- i can offer a small fish a tank like that, so thats what i would do. On the other hand, i wouldn't agree with putting them in a small tank simply so you can see them better as a valid reason- my female sailfin hardly ever comes out during the day, but that doesn't mean i deprive her tank of decor or put her in the smallest tank within basic requirments just so i can see her. If you buy a shy fish then you should accept it for that.
But if somone wanted to keep 3 DP's in a 6gal, would you encourage them to do so, or would you try and encourage them to opt for somthing bigger? All in all, opinions of cruelty aside, its how you act on your opinions when it comes down to it i.e give advice, thats most important.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

I suppose i agree with you there, the example of keeping large fish in large tanks is good. Personally though if i ever had a DP i would give it a 10gal, but thats just me- i can offer a small fish a tank like that, so thats what i would do. On the other hand, i wouldn't agree with putting them in a small tank simply so you can see them better as a valid reason- my female sailfin hardly ever comes out during the day, but that doesn't mean i deprive her tank of decor or put her in the smallest tank within basic requirments just so i can see her. If you buy a shy fish then you should accept it for that.
But if somone wanted to keep 3 DP's in a 6gal, would you encourage them to do so, or would you try and encourage them to opt for somthing bigger? All in all, opinions of cruelty aside, its how you act on your opinions when it comes down to it i.e give advice, thats most important.

its not that they're shy, they're just bloody hard to spot! the brief time i owned DPs before it became obvious that i couldn't house them long term, i had several small heart-attacks where i thought i had lost one or more of my dps, simply because i couldn't find them, even with a flashlight. this wasn't in a very large tank either. no, i don't think you should deprive them of space or cover in order to counteract their small size. but i'm also not going to recommend keeping them in an exceptionally large tank (unless you would spend some 30 minutes a day staring at it anyways.)

i agree that 3 adult DPs in a 6g is unreasonable, but such a tank could serve as a suitable grow-out before relocating one or all to a larger tank. however, since the temptation is always to leave them where they are, i would not advocate this practice to anyone who i was not confident in their ability to rehouse the fish once appropriate. bunji is no slouch; if he says that they were juveniles who refused to adapt their diet, then i am going to assume that he's correct.

(DPs are at least on here well known to refuse any food which is not moving. that is one of the very first things members of this forum, including ALL of our most informed puffer enthusiasts, mention when people ask about keeping dwarf puffers. several of our members who own DPs have made mention of needing to resort to special tricks to feed them and many own DPs who will eat nothing other than live food and frozen bloodworm.)