Would This Be Cruel?

[pica_nuttalli]

while we can all agree that bigger=better in terms of simple cleanliness, there isn't a reason to consider a 5g tank as cruel for a fish that will generally attempt to claim about 5g of territory. as for the whole "how would you like to live in your room your whole life" argument... well, if my apartment was 1210 times my size and full of yummy food and books to look through, then i probably wouldn't mind especially if i was an agoraphobe. would your boa constrictor now like a salad? we've got ranch dressing.

there are also legitimate financial and space limitations which can lead one to prefer a 5g tank over a 10g. while 10g setups can be had for as little as $50 here in the States, they can be quite pricey over in the UK and elsewhere. a 5 gallon will also (by definition) take up half the space of a 10g and also weigh about half as much. thus, if you only have a bookshelf or the top of a dresser available for a tank, the foot square and 45 lb 5 gallon is probably the better choice than the 2 sq ft, 90 lb 10 gallon. if you can only be 100% certain of successfully keeping the one fish in either of those tank sizes and the fish in question only needs 5g of territory anyways... then why is it a horrible choice to pick the 5 gallon?

 

[Anthony!]

I know that most people will say that it isnt cruel...but Im going to give you some advice. Go down to the local jail and ask to sit in the booking cell, or the drunk tank for a few hours. You will never ever look at a ten gallon tank the same. I suppose you could also look at it as sitting in your room all day. Yea your room is cool, and there is some stuff to do, but do you really want to be there ALL your life? In this instance its also cruel from this stand point: ten gallon tanks are cheap. you can get one for 8 dollars at walmart. full set ups for 30. jump big, and give your new little friend an interesting complex place to live and explore.

I believe it is INEXPLICABLE, IMHO, that you could compare a puffer fish in a tank to a drunk in a cell. A betta can live happily in a 2 gal "vase" for 2-4 years, a DP can live in a 10 gal with a buddy for their life's span. think about it... They have PLENTY of room. A drunk in a cell, or a criminal, for the matter can't go to the bottom of the cell, back up to the top, or cruise in the middle. A fish has the ability to do this, they live in water and we don't. Come on, think about it before you flare up on the subject, alright? And it would be INSANE to put one DP in most anything bigger than a 10 gal... something that grows to 1' in a 30 gallon for example. You do the math. Go complain somewhere else, where you can get a foothold on what you're saying.

 

[Rocker]

OK, explain why it would be insane to put a dp in a 30G. Might be a bit extreme but not insane.

 

[T1KARMANN]

5gal is like 1 bucket of water yes i would say thats cruel

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I often feel that people buy a tank and the aim to stock it as much as they can. I often feel this is the same with DP's and similar small fish and 5gal tanks, i think this is the wrong approach to fish keeping though. Why do we need to aim to fully stock tanks all the time? Why do we always aim to fit the biggest fish in the smallest tanks posible? Why do we always try and have as many tanks crammed in as posible? Are we really trying to enjoy the fish for what they are, or are we just hoarding or keeping them in denial of this true and (relatively) admirable aim of fish keeping?
The times when i have enjoyed my fish the most, is when the tanks they were in stocked to the least- i realised this fact a little while ago, and i am now aiming to reduce the stocking to a level which is most comfortable for the fish when i get my new tanks. I started fish keeping because i wanted to have a little peice of tropical river in my home, and to appreiciate the beauty and character of the fish i kept the most.
And i'm not really convinced on the motives of the "i'm a poor person/person with very little space and thats why i got the puniest tank within the basic requirements for the fish i keep" type of arguement. Somehow i don't feel that its...I dunno. I just don't think its a very good reason. Its very close to the "if you can't give the fish the space it needs, then don't get it" type of argument to me.

 

[JJ1234567]

The drunk tank analogy was just the first that happened to come to mind. In respose to my plec, he has since been moved to a friends 75gal for just that reason. I guess you just have to ask, are you as a being happy with the minimum? Ive never seen anyone or anything for that matter that doesnt want more. So why start out with less. As far as the fish world goes I have seen many smart fish, puffers seem to be darn near the fore front of that race. They are as a species a great fish. But they are not a sedintary (sp?) fish, they tend to be quite active and they want lots to do and explore. Bettas, some types of eels, some cardnals (marine), and so forth dont need a ton of space compared to a fish that may be half their size. Why? because they are lurkers. They pick a cave and chill, and are happy with that. A puffer by nature is not, they want to see what they can see. so even though space wise its not like a DP takes up a significant portion of a 5gal, he still should be given the space he deserves.

 

[Rocker]

Was a bit of a silly analogy...

I kept 3 dwarf puffers happily in a 6 gallon tank. Unfortunately 2 of them wouldnt eat anything but snails so they starved. The other lived happily on cockle and mussel.

I would say you'd be absolutely fine to keep one in a 5G tank, possibly even 2, just keep on top of water changes and provide them with the right food and you will be fine.

Ben

lol 3 dp's happy in a 6g but they died. Ummm dead happy?

 

[Genesis]

lol 3 dp's happy in a 6g but they died. Ummm dead happy?

in fact 2 died, and that ws because they starved, stop being pedantic

 

[bunjiweb]

Sorry but I havent managed to keep every fish out of the 150 odd I have had alive, if you have a 100% success rate then I admire you, however I currently run 7 tanks and have had virtually no problems in months (one dead royal panaque for unknown reason, suspected instestinal worms).

I invite people to rip me apart for keeping a 5Gallon Marine tank, anyone going to do so? Come on, Its massively overstocked! Please, Please PLEASE take me down a peg or 2!!!

Ben

 

[Rocker]

in fact 2 died, and that ws because they starved, stop being pedantic

Probably starved because they were underhouse. Just thought they couldn't possibly be happy if they wouldn't eat.

 

[bunjiweb]

They would eat, but only snails.

As i said, if you have got a problem with the way I keep things then please don't attempt to ridicule me as I think that you are only on here to make an arguement and in that particular instance make out like I was mistreating my fish which i certainly do not.

Ben

 

[Rocker]

They would eat, but only snails.

As i said, if you have got a problem with the way I keep things then please don't attempt to ridicule me as I think that you are only on here to make an arguement and in that particular instance make out like I was mistreating my fish which i certainly do not.

Ben

No, the only thing I wish to say and make clear is that this thread is to get peoples opinions on putting one DP in 5g. Now the views are mixed.The general concensus is that a DP can be housed in a 5g but you state that you have kept 3 in a 6g. You however had a go at the first person to speak out.That was making it personal.I do not know how you keep your fish so I cannot make out you are mistreating them. I am only saying that 5g is amin but questioning why people have to stick to a minimum. What is wrong with one in a 10g?

 

[bunjiweb]

There is nothing *wrong* with 1 puffer in a 10G.

All I am concerned about is that you feel the need to ridicule the fact that 2 of my DPs died, and are making out that it was because of the diminished tank size.

Anyway, this thread has gone horrendously off course..

 

[pica_nuttalli]

there's a very good reason not to keep DPs in a significantly oversized tank--it'd be exceptionally difficult to see them (that is, if you have the tank planted up properly).

it makes it much more difficult to maintain a somewhat delicate fish if you rarely see them. suppose you had a DP that would only eat snails and ignored any frozen/freeze-dried foods? how would you know if it was getting enough food? suppose you had 3-4 DPs and suddenly one of them was injured? DPs pretty much come in spotty and not-so-spotty, so it can easily prove difficult to distinguish between individuals at a distance. in an exceptionally large tank, one DP out of a group could go missing for several days without the lack being immediately apparent.

as for the comment:
"Probably starved because they were underhouse. Just thought they couldn't possibly be happy if they wouldn't eat."

DPs are notoriously difficult to wean onto dead food. This is a silly and insulting comment. DPs are also famed for their radical temperament change upon sexual maturity. Housing 3 juvie DPs in a 6g is not unreasonable because juvie DPs tend to spend most of their time together anyways. Housing more than one adult male DP in a 6g is definately discouraged, though, because male adults are known to be quite territorial. The transistion between these two behaviors must be carefully accomodated, but that's easy enough provided that one's watching their fish at feeding time.

Look, there are 3 main critera considered when determining minimum tank sizes:

-- a fish needs to be able to turn around
-- you need an appropriately sized volume of water to dilute waste/buffer changes in chemistry
-- you need to accomodate a fish's claim to territory

a DP can turn around in 5g, 5g is generally considered the smallest volume capable of maintaining a stable nitrogen cycle, and well, by the standards of this last one, we're all abusing our fish unless we've got them in tanks the size of our local holding cell.

every DP that gets to live in a 5g is a king compared to the space allocated to our larger finny friends. think of the poor arowanas, most of them condemned to 4'x2'x2' tanks barely as wide as the fish's adult length! and stingrays, who survive in nature by constantly hovering wide sandy bottoms, are generally only proscribed to live in tanks twice their radius--few of them getting even that. hell, even common plecos are getting the rough end of the deal when kept in just 75gs (18" fish in an 18" wide tank). and your Fahaka in a 6'x2'x2'? sounds fairly cramped to me...

why don't we keep these giants in 10 foot tanks? money and space constraints. so we double up on our filtration, on our water changes, and keep them individually.

 

[Anthony!]

pica, i think you're my hero. I'm just going to stuff it on this thread,I will not pick a fight here. hopefully a mod will come along and close this up... as bunjiweb said, this has gone madly off track.

EDIT: Pica, you ARE my hero