Woman Jailed Over Tail Dockings

[babybell911]

I agree with you there pica people are too quick to judge.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

WERE DOGS BORN WITH TAILS? YES! SO WHY SHOULD HUMANS BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE WAY DOGS LOOK? WE CHANGE ALOT OF THINGS IN THE WORLD AND WE HAVE MADE MAYBE 5% OF THOSE CHANGES FOR GOOD. AS A WHOLE, THE WORLD WOULD OF BEEN A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT HUMANS.


Sorry for the caps, but people piss me off sometimes

Urgh...


So you hate your own existance as a human being because you believe the world would be a better place without us?

Yes, the world probably would be better off without the human race, but we are here, and it looks like we are here to stay for a long time yet. There are many levels of which i find what you just said insulting about the human race, because you completely ignore the reality that we are here and that not every human being is as bad as the next- by saying you think the world would be better off without people, doesn't just indicate you hate the worser side of the human race and human nature, but you don't want the better aspects of our race here either etc.

... ... ...



Anways, whether you like it or not, we do have the right to dock animals tails and change the ways animals look, and this will probably not change anytime soon.
Perhaps you should just stop keeping fish like your siamese fighting fish, because we humans have changed the way the fish looks at the expense of the fish (for example those long flowing fins which weight the betta down are not natural btw).



Saying that people shouldn't change the way animals look is like saying people shouldn't sectively breed fish to look different, or that horse owners shouldn't trim their horses tails and manes, or farmers shouldn't clip their chickens wings, or people shouldn't put iron shoes on horses feet, or that farmers shouldn't dock the tails of their lambs etc.


We are changing the way animals look all the time. Few domestic animals accurately resemble their wild relatives/ancesters at all. Saying we shouldn't change the way animals look we be like saying people should stop breeding dogs, since essentially all domestic breeds of dogs have been made to look different to their wild wolf relatives.


As i said before, i agree with tail docking on dogs for certain reasons, like medical purposes or on certified working dogs- this is done to improve the quality/welfare/health of the dog and only has the dog in mind in its best interests. I disagree with tail docking purely for cosmetic purposes though.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

1) you forget that "scissors" is a general term that includes everything from nubby little sewing scissors to the powerful kitchen scissors that one uses to cut apart chickens.


2) the puppies were 1 day old when docked, meaning that the docking occurred well before the tails would have finished calcifying and before full development of the nerves


3) the docking was discovered a month after the fact and not due to any medical complications. from the sounds of it, someone merely told the authorities that she had broken the law.

I do agree with you on certain points to certain extents, however...
Yes scissors could involve a whole range of sharp to blunt edged scissor type objects. But even if the scissors were sharp and strong, i doubt the woman would have known how to properly disinfect such equipment, and doing what she did could have caused the puppys to suffer serious infections.


I used to watch the RSPCA program all the time when i was a kid, i saw a couple of programs once when RSPCA inspectors had saved puppies and young dogs from botched tail docking operations- most of the botched operations had led to horrible infections in the dogs tail stump.
This woman had no proper veternary experience or qualifications, she was putting her dogs at least to some degree of risk to their health by doing what she did.

4) punishing the breeder does nothing to alleviate the fact that everyone buying her puppies wanted a docked tail. there really ought to be a companion law that demands people owning docked animals to pay an annual fee. it wouldn't hard to enforce, since docked animals are readily identified and it would be easy enough to create certificates just like those given out with rabies vaccines. it would also generate a continual source of revenue for the government as opposed to the expense associated with putting a 50 yr-old woman in jail.

Thats very true about people wanting dogs with docked tails, but i disagree on a tail docking tax. Skint farmers with loved working dogs, or honest people who have had to have their dogs tails docked because of medical reasons, or people who have simply adopted old dogs which have had their tails docked in the past, really don't deserve to pay tax for having dogs with docked tails.
Tell me the exact reasons for why you believe such people deserve to be taxed for such a thing?

5) I cannot believe the lack of sympathy that you guys have for an older woman who has just lost all rights to her pets. How many of you were perfect fish-keepers when you first showed up here? Did you realize that neon tetras should live for 10 years or that iridescent sharks grow to be 3 feet long? It's the same principle here. Up until last year, it was considered an acceptable practice to dock puppies. This woman just didn't get the memo. And now she's being excoriated and losing her pets and you can't have one once of sympathy for her?! Most of you even pity hoarders, who by definition cannot take care of their animals and allow them to wallow neglected in filth. Look at that puppy. Except for the missing tail (which is even docked properly), he looks perfectly healthy. Remember, if these puppies were being sold as "working dogs", then these charges would not even have been brought.

I don't have sympathy for her, because what she did was just downright stupid (or at least neglecting things which she should have known better). For me, it beggars belief that she thought it was legal to perform such operations on dogs by herself, really it is a common sense thing that it isn't- even if it was legal, at least for me, i would never even attempt such a thing by myself (would you?).
Farmers and petshops for example have to constantly keep an eye on the law to see what they are doing to their animals is legal or not, these things are always changing, it is part of the animal owners responsability to keep up to date with these things- a whole year passed for her to check up on stuff like this. And i doubt she would have been given such a harsh sentence if it really was a case of her just not getting the memo...
As far as i am aware dogs need to have a certificate to be working dogs, you can't just say "my dog is a working dog so thats why i docked its tail", you need to have some proof of this, this law is in place to stop people docking dogs tails for cosmetic reasons, as otherwise anyone could say such things and get away with lying etc.

6) I support the ban on cosmetic docking. Full stop. But have an ounce of concern for the otherwise loving and caring owners who will inevitably be prosecuted and lose their pets because they didn't understand that your government meant business about this. It's going to take several years for people to understand that docked puppies are not going to be sold any more. Until that understanding permeates even to people buying their very first dog, there's going to be economic pressure on breeders to dock. And there will be breeders caving to that pressure.

Remember, if docking was actually horrific and brutal, then it would be considered animal cruelty in all cases without exception. But it's not. The dangers and pain associated with docking are debatable and little can be proven by either side. The most convincing argument against it is that dogs that have been docked are problematic to socialize with other dogs due to impaired body language. There is little to counter that argument, except to argue safety and worry about potential adult amputation of working dogs' tails (which is actually dangerous and definitely leads to chronic pain). Thus, docking for cosmetic reasons is unjustified and docking for functional reasons is still debatable.

Perhaps she will serve as an example then that the government does mean buisness. If the government just lets people off every time these cases go to court, then this problem will just continue. No one is forced to breed dogs, yes it is not the most profitable buisness, but caving into tail docking pressures purely for the money is wrong.

Personally i don't see tail docking as an act of animal cruelty, i just see it as more of a animal welfare issue thing, i agree or disagree with it based on the individual circumstances/situation of each tail docking case. Sometimes it really is nesarsary, or really does have many benefets to the welfare of the animal- i don't think this was the case in this incidence though.

 

[QuotheRaven]

I agree mostly with Tokis-Phoenix

just plain stupidity, common sense would tell you it's not right what your doing...

 

[K.J.]

4) punishing the breeder does nothing to alleviate the fact that everyone buying her puppies wanted a docked tail. there really ought to be a companion law that demands people owning docked animals to pay an annual fee. it wouldn't hard to enforce, since docked animals are readily identified and it would be easy enough to create certificates just like those given out with rabies vaccines. it would also generate a continual source of revenue for the government as opposed to the expense associated with putting a 50 yr-old woman in jail.

Do you honestly believe that would work? Why? And why should it work? Maybe for the breeders who dock tails, but for the people who own docked-tail dogs? What if you had bought a puppy or dog, who happened to have a docked tail, and you ended up having to be taxed? How would YOU feel? Or, comparatively, how would you feel if suddenly you got taxed to keep fish the color, say, blue? I don't feel sympathy. She is not a level headed person. A sensible person should not have cut puppies tail. She does not deserve pets. That's very simple.

 

[seffieuk]

Here, here, the voice of reason at last, well done Pica_nuttalli

 

[demonmagus]

I don't believe that any dog should ever have thier tail docked. Animals look beautiful the way they are born and don't need to be altered!

lol you must be having a larf, if animals look beatiful the way they're born then why do we breed selectively to *improve*

 

[modaz]

totally disagree with docking except for medical or working purposes.

This woman is a prime example of how far some people will go for money at the end of the day, The docking law has been around for a while now and at 35 years of age i can remember it being a big thing in the media at some point, so i think that a person of 51 would have the knowledge that what she was doing was illegal esp if she had been breeding to order, which is almost 99% likely since she admitted that potential customers WANTED docked tails and the pups were docked at 1 day old, so she had intented to do this before the birth of the litter.

As much as i wanted to say " give her 10+years" i find myself thinking that the little time she will spend in prison and the media coverage (IF SEEN) would put people off doing this for money purposes. A prison record is the last thing that anyone would want following them around at the end of the end.

QUOTE
"Tail docking began hundreds of years ago when people had a very different attitude to dogs and ’animal welfare’ was unheard of. Docking is thought to have been used for the following reasons; to increase a dog’s speed, prevention of damage in dog fights, prevention of back injury, rabies prevention and even tax evasion! "

Times have changed and a law has been placed, she broke the law so SERVE HER RIGHT.

I would've made sure that she had a LIFETIME ban from keeping any animal. as it was more than likely done out of greed and TBH how many people get up in court and say " BUT I DIDNT KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING WAS WRONG" ...................quite a few.

 

[fry_lover]

"A woman who used scissors to cut off the tails of eight puppies has been jailed for two months and banned from owning an animal for 10 years"

Full story;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/6989969.stm




For once, someone gets a decent sentence for animal cruelty .

jailed for 2 months is a decent sentence? i think not

[[Replacing swearing with stars will not be tolerated either]]

 

[fry_lover]

"I cannot believe the lack of sympathy that you guys have for an older woman who has just lost all rights to her pets. How many of you were perfect fish-keepers when you first showed up here? Did you realize that neon tetras should live for 10 years or that iridescent sharks grow to be 3 feet long? It's the same principle here. Up until last year, it was considered an acceptable practice to dock puppies. This woman just didn't get the memo. And now she's being excoriated and losing her pets and you can't have one once of sympathy for her?! Most of you even pity hoarders, who by definition cannot take care of their animals and allow them to wallow neglected in filth. Look at that puppy. Except for the missing tail (which is even docked properly), he looks perfectly healthy. Remember, if these puppies were being sold as "working dogs", then these charges would not even have been brought"

some dude (edit: dudette) posted this from page 1,

Just wondering why it matters she is an "older woman"?

 

[fry_lover]

WERE DOGS BORN WITH TAILS? YES! SO WHY SHOULD HUMANS BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE WAY DOGS LOOK? WE CHANGE ALOT OF THINGS IN THE WORLD AND WE HAVE MADE MAYBE 5% OF THOSE CHANGES FOR GOOD. AS A WHOLE, THE WORLD WOULD OF BEEN A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT HUMANS.


Sorry for the caps, but people piss me off sometimes

Urgh...


So you hate your own existance as a human being because you believe the world would be a better place without us?

Yes, the world probably would be better off without the human race, but we are here, and it looks like we are here to stay for a long time yet. There are many levels of which i find what you just said insulting about the human race, because you completely ignore the reality that we are here and that not every human being is as bad as the next- by saying you think the world would be better off without people, doesn't just indicate you hate the worser side of the human race and human nature, but you don't want the better aspects of our race here either etc.

... ... ...



Anways, whether you like it or not, we do have the right to dock animals tails and change the ways animals look, and this will probably not change anytime soon.
Perhaps you should just stop keeping fish like your siamese fighting fish, because we humans have changed the way the fish looks at the expense of the fish (for example those long flowing fins which weight the betta down are not natural btw).



Saying that people shouldn't change the way animals look is like saying people shouldn't sectively breed fish to look different, or that horse owners shouldn't trim their horses tails and manes, or farmers shouldn't clip their chickens wings, or people shouldn't put iron shoes on horses feet, or that farmers shouldn't dock the tails of their lambs etc.


We are changing the way animals look all the time. Few domestic animals accurately resemble their wild relatives/ancesters at all. Saying we shouldn't change the way animals look we be like saying people should stop breeding dogs, since essentially all domestic breeds of dogs have been made to look different to their wild wolf relatives.


As i said before, i agree with tail docking on dogs for certain reasons, like medical purposes or on certified working dogs- this is done to improve the quality/welfare/health of the dog and only has the dog in mind in its best interests. I disagree with tail docking purely for cosmetic purposes though.

the dude (Bozza) was upset and rightly so, i am not sure how useful it is to start bringing a load of philosophy into it and relating it to his very simple and short post, you really went to town there on someones reply who is just p*ssed of with animal cruelty, You set the thread up to condem the **** who used scissors on a dog, lets focus on that, it doesnt need to become a thread thats gets stuck up its own A$$

 

[fry_lover]

and for those relating using scizzors to mutilate a puppy to keeping fish, does that mean we should all take our fish back to the LFS? and try to persuade the LFS to take the fish back to Lake Malawi etc?

EDIT: i cant believe some people are debating "scissors" here? that scissors can mean lots of different things? Thats one of the most bizaare arguments i ever seen on ANY forum EVER insane

I keep reading on the thread as i go back, that the fact she is 50 or 51 means something? again, absolutely bizaare, crazy, madness that "age" argument kinda makes a little sense if the peep was 16 or 93, but 50 or 51, WHAT?

Also, some peeps comment "quick to judge".................. welcome to the internet and forums

QUOTE
"Tail docking began hundreds of years ago when people had a very different attitude to dogs and ’animal welfare’ was unheard of. Docking is thought to have been used for the following reasons; to increase a dog’s speed, prevention of damage in dog fights, prevention of back injury, rabies prevention and even tax evasion! "

Times have changed and a law has been placed, she broke the law so SERVE HER RIGHT.

Agreed Modaz

who cares about the historical background of docking,

woman used to get burned alive for being "witches"

Geez

wake up and small the coffee

 

[grahamsokel]

I am not going to get into an argument over this topic and once i have put my reply i will not do another post on this topic as i have seen this subject get way out of control so mant times on Forums.

I used to show a breed that Is/was Docked but I am a member of the Anti docking Aliance,I never used to dock our Dogs but i still managed to get one of our Dogs up to crufts level.Many shows I wasnt placed because of her tail but this didnt put me off.

Tail Docking has been illegal for many years if done by a member of the public and could only be done by a vet.
Most vets wouldnt do it because they had been warned if they did they would be struck off.The ones that did still dock where doing it behind closed doors.

It is now illegal for dogs to be docked unless they are a working breed but then the pups must be sold to working homes not pet homes.

She Couldnt not have known what she had done was illegal and in my opinion she didnt get a long enough sentance

 

[modaz]

I think that every dog that is docked should be microchipped, and the registered owner has proof that the dog has had its tail docked due to legitimate reasons only or is currently an active working dog.

like i said i dont agree with it but i do undertsand why for the correct reasons why its done, some dogs in the uk need to have to be registered by the owner due to the breed, this kind of thing could be used for the docking issue. not that my word is gunna change the world ofcourse

 

[Bozza]

Overall we are stupid animals. We have screwed ourself and the rest of the animals on this world. And no im not an activist or environmentalist. Just a person who likes to tell people where they stand. USA rules. Screw everyone else.