JT-SCFC-1912
Fish Fanatic
Thanks mate, it's just if they took time to offer accurate advice, educate beginners / customers they would earn a lot of money as we know fish keeping isn't cheap
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Why Isn't The Message Getting Through?
- Thread starter ColR1948
- Start date
Thanks mate, it's just if they took time to offer accurate advice, educate beginners / customers they would earn a lot of money as we know fish keeping isn't cheap
Mikey1
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when people buy fish at my LFS they ask "is this a new tank" or "how long has the tank been running" to determine if the tank is suitable for the fish yet....
they will also ask if the fish you are purchasing are going in the same tank if you are buying two species that are not compatible....
they will also ask if the fish you are purchasing are going in the same tank if you are buying two species that are not compatible....
When I started fish keeping, I was 12 years old and the typical newbie taken advantage of by shop keepers. How these people sleep at night is beyond me.
Unfortunately until fish have the same protection as other pets, nothing will change. Even dogs do not have good enough protection from cruelty let alone a 'lesser' animal like a fish. It's a great shame as I'm a firm believer that all animals are equal (if not better!) than humans and they can certainly feel pain and suffer, but too many people think they are beneath us and we can do what we like with them
.
Unfortunately until fish have the same protection as other pets, nothing will change. Even dogs do not have good enough protection from cruelty let alone a 'lesser' animal like a fish. It's a great shame as I'm a firm believer that all animals are equal (if not better!) than humans and they can certainly feel pain and suffer, but too many people think they are beneath us and we can do what we like with them
People don't seem to understand that fish have a nervous system, feel pain and get stressed. Very sad situation! I could never work in a fish store as I would be endlessly questioning!
If people are that committed to the hobby they will realise that patience is key, and want to do things right from the offset.
I personally think LFS should be accredited by RSPCA or some kind of governing body where they have standards to adhere to. They could be set in tiers, whe they have annual or 6 monthly inspections and have a certain criteria to reach, including maybe the odd secret shopper. The higher the standard, the more customers they will acquire, as word spreads on the great info and service offered.
Veterinary practices need to do this, and can then advertise as a three tier RCVS accredited practice and clients understand they have set rules to follow etc.
It would protect both client and fish store owner. 30 litre tanks should also only be sold as hospital tanks. If only!
If people are that committed to the hobby they will realise that patience is key, and want to do things right from the offset.
I personally think LFS should be accredited by RSPCA or some kind of governing body where they have standards to adhere to. They could be set in tiers, whe they have annual or 6 monthly inspections and have a certain criteria to reach, including maybe the odd secret shopper. The higher the standard, the more customers they will acquire, as word spreads on the great info and service offered.
Veterinary practices need to do this, and can then advertise as a three tier RCVS accredited practice and clients understand they have set rules to follow etc.
It would protect both client and fish store owner. 30 litre tanks should also only be sold as hospital tanks. If only!
OP
OP
ColR1948
Fishaholic
I'm glad you mentioned the small tanks, there seems to be trend thing now for these small tanks that are more ornaments than fish tanks, some with nice plastic plants, lights and bubbles that will look pretty on a desk or something.
The idea of a set standard is good, this made me think of an item of news not too long ago where a lady got fined for selling a Goldfish to a minor, they made a big deal out of it but what about all these other stories our members can and have quoted that are far worse.
The idea of a set standard is good, this made me think of an item of news not too long ago where a lady got fined for selling a Goldfish to a minor, they made a big deal out of it but what about all these other stories our members can and have quoted that are far worse.
You also have to consider that its not the shops responsibility to make sure peoples welfare standards are up to scratch...
It's a shop...where you buy things... including fish... you dont expect supermarkets to tell you what ingredients to buy and how to cook them...
You dont go out buying other pets like parrots or dogs or a horse without buying what you need and doing research first... you dont expect other people to arrange it all for you... you sort stuff out yourself...
Legally, once money has changed hands.. the fish are your responsibility 100% to look after and provide them with all of the welfare requirements.
There is also no legislation stipulating that shops have to tell you what you can and cant have... nor that staff have to have experience keeping every single species in the shop to know enough about them to advise you whether the fish are suitable...
That said... people spend so much time complaining on here about not liking their LFS but you dont see many posts about people that have had good experiences....
Just my thoughts <.<
It's a shop...where you buy things... including fish... you dont expect supermarkets to tell you what ingredients to buy and how to cook them...
You dont go out buying other pets like parrots or dogs or a horse without buying what you need and doing research first... you dont expect other people to arrange it all for you... you sort stuff out yourself...
Legally, once money has changed hands.. the fish are your responsibility 100% to look after and provide them with all of the welfare requirements.
There is also no legislation stipulating that shops have to tell you what you can and cant have... nor that staff have to have experience keeping every single species in the shop to know enough about them to advise you whether the fish are suitable...
That said... people spend so much time complaining on here about not liking their LFS but you dont see many posts about people that have had good experiences....
Just my thoughts <.<
I have good experiences. My 2 local independents are both knowledgeable about their stock and are good for advice. Neither profess to know everything and they keep their tanks in good order. At one of them the staff are becoming good friends of ours.
My 2 local chains are pretty good as well, selection isn't so good at the bigger chain, but, as has been said, I can't fault them for asking difficult questions of people before sale.
My 2 local chains are pretty good as well, selection isn't so good at the bigger chain, but, as has been said, I can't fault them for asking difficult questions of people before sale.
DreamertK
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I was one of those idiots that followed the advise of the LFS, though I had done my own research which stated the two ways of cycling with the pro's and cons before I initially went into the LFS. Long term damage to the fish wasn't included in the cons of fish in cycling, so I decided on that.
The thing I would commend Pet*Smart on would be that they label their fish tanks with how large the tank should be for the fish, what kind of fish they are (community/semiaggressive/ext), how large they grow. So even if they're employees don't know, you can look at it with the fish you want to get and figure it out for yourself without having to do a bunch of research beforehand. If more smaller fish shops did this, then we'd probably see less of these horror posts. Perhaps since people see these fish in those 10 gallon tanks in the LFS, they think they can keep the fish in that size of tank or smaller.
The thing I would commend Pet*Smart on would be that they label their fish tanks with how large the tank should be for the fish, what kind of fish they are (community/semiaggressive/ext), how large they grow. So even if they're employees don't know, you can look at it with the fish you want to get and figure it out for yourself without having to do a bunch of research beforehand. If more smaller fish shops did this, then we'd probably see less of these horror posts. Perhaps since people see these fish in those 10 gallon tanks in the LFS, they think they can keep the fish in that size of tank or smaller.
Unfortunately it does also happen with cats, dogs and horses.
Many a time I have had clients come into clinics where they bought a collie as a pup at Xmas, and it's turned aggressive and they can't understand why (they lived in a flat with no garden and thought just going out to the toilet was enough) another sad but semi amusing at the time was people who adopted a couple of cats from a well known animal rescue centre, having had them a month the cats were still settling into their new environment when the turkey was taken out of the oven the male sprayed it, hence both cats were returned that day back to the rescue centre!
Quite often adverts are also placed in the paper where people have taken on horses and found out they are 'over horsed' for what they wanted to do.
It is such a shame but is not limited to the fish industry.
I am a stay at home mum now, but I worked as an RVN in a vet practice for over 12 years and have witnessed many cases of neglect where people have just lost interest.
I do also have praise for my local fish store where all of the staff are clearly knowledgable, there are also some new staff who clearly know about fish, but what they don't know, they find out from another member of staff other than try and blag their way through it.
Yes I agree it is ultimately up to the general public to do their research first, but keeping fish has the common misconception of plonk them in an aquarium, feed them, they won't mess in your house (like dogs/cats) and if they die, they die!
They just skim over the work involved such as regular water changes and water testing as that also involves added time and money. I think also that fish are a convenience for people who holiday or are away from home quite often as owning other pets would mean kennel/ cattery fees, whereas fish - just put the light on a timer and put a weekly feeding block in.
Many a time I have had clients come into clinics where they bought a collie as a pup at Xmas, and it's turned aggressive and they can't understand why (they lived in a flat with no garden and thought just going out to the toilet was enough) another sad but semi amusing at the time was people who adopted a couple of cats from a well known animal rescue centre, having had them a month the cats were still settling into their new environment when the turkey was taken out of the oven the male sprayed it, hence both cats were returned that day back to the rescue centre!
Quite often adverts are also placed in the paper where people have taken on horses and found out they are 'over horsed' for what they wanted to do.
It is such a shame but is not limited to the fish industry.
I am a stay at home mum now, but I worked as an RVN in a vet practice for over 12 years and have witnessed many cases of neglect where people have just lost interest.
I do also have praise for my local fish store where all of the staff are clearly knowledgable, there are also some new staff who clearly know about fish, but what they don't know, they find out from another member of staff other than try and blag their way through it.
Yes I agree it is ultimately up to the general public to do their research first, but keeping fish has the common misconception of plonk them in an aquarium, feed them, they won't mess in your house (like dogs/cats) and if they die, they die!
They just skim over the work involved such as regular water changes and water testing as that also involves added time and money. I think also that fish are a convenience for people who holiday or are away from home quite often as owning other pets would mean kennel/ cattery fees, whereas fish - just put the light on a timer and put a weekly feeding block in.
JohnCS
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The double recession has played a major part if you ask me, almost everyone is worse off than 5 years ago, so almost everyone has to try to earn more money, this obviously includes LFS's which if anything will be affected worse, due to fishkeeping being a hobby and not a vital element of life, so any sale they can get is made as quick as possible, its sad to see but in a way i can see where people are coming from, as wrong as it is, money is everything these days, so any money a shop can earn, they do.
On the subject of LFS's etc... , does anyone else feel the need for a law to be passed making it illegal to sell a live animal to someone without asking a set of basic questions... 'where will you be keeping this animal' 'what food will you be feeding it' etc..., such basic questions could reduce the amount of problems keepers find massively, and saves people buying fish 'cause they're pretty',
John
On the subject of LFS's etc... , does anyone else feel the need for a law to be passed making it illegal to sell a live animal to someone without asking a set of basic questions... 'where will you be keeping this animal' 'what food will you be feeding it' etc..., such basic questions could reduce the amount of problems keepers find massively, and saves people buying fish 'cause they're pretty',
John
nigsy
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I think the issue is 2 fold...one the public perception of fish...2sec memory and don't feel pain (as already stated) and also the shops that sell you anything to get that pound in the till - which has got to be counter productive in the long run.
Again I have to say P@H is the only place I have ever been 'grilled' over what I'm doing with my fish, how long has my tank been set up (5 years), did the last ones die of disease (never been asked that before!) - After all that and finally getting my 3 Angel fish, I pointed out the sign on the front of the new tanks that states ' Please allow 4 days for your new tank to settle before adding new fish', how strange I got no reply!!
Again I have to say P@H is the only place I have ever been 'grilled' over what I'm doing with my fish, how long has my tank been set up (5 years), did the last ones die of disease (never been asked that before!) - After all that and finally getting my 3 Angel fish, I pointed out the sign on the front of the new tanks that states ' Please allow 4 days for your new tank to settle before adding new fish', how strange I got no reply!!
JohnCS
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This is what really gets to me, how can an LFS know when a tank will be ready? The only way an aquarium can 'settle in 4 days' is if you use mature filter medium, you cannot set up a tank,leave it 4 days then chuck the fish in, why do shops not realise that they're sending a lot of the fish they sell, to death.
Because otherwise the customers will go elsewhere to buy their fish. Just because everyone on this forums knows better, 90% of customers still dont! You get maybe 10% that will listen and become good customers or already know their stuff, 60% that go away grumbling for a week at most maybe two weeks if you can push it before insisting they need fish now no matter the consequences...
The other 30% are the customers we say "no" to who then go to the nearest shop and when asked the same questions we asked, they change the answers to make sure they can get the fish as they know what they said before that didnt get them what they wanted.
People are devious and will do whatever they can to get what they want. If it means getting in my face and screaming at me?... i have had that... people threatening to hit me? yeah... had that too... complaints maid to head office? regularly.... people telling their upset little kids that the mean lady wont let them have fish so they sob heartbrokenly... instead of explaining to them that if they get fish now, they might get poorly and instead, why dont they decorate the tank a little bit more (as i suggest as alternative to getting fish..) they would rather make their kidreally upset just to punish me than understand that its the lives of animals they are playing God with.
Shops have to do the best they can, where i work... we all have different opinions, one person says a week and i cant question him on that but i say 10-14 days minimum with a strict routine of water changes, a pinch of fish and bacteria supplements and every time, i write down what they have to do day by day and in tey wont buy a test kit, they bring water and i test it for them.
We encourage people to bring water to be tested but some people dont think its necessary or just cant be bothered...
Personally, i'd be happier with stricter laws to back me up... but then companies would go under... faster than they are already...
The other 30% are the customers we say "no" to who then go to the nearest shop and when asked the same questions we asked, they change the answers to make sure they can get the fish as they know what they said before that didnt get them what they wanted.
People are devious and will do whatever they can to get what they want. If it means getting in my face and screaming at me?... i have had that... people threatening to hit me? yeah... had that too... complaints maid to head office? regularly.... people telling their upset little kids that the mean lady wont let them have fish so they sob heartbrokenly... instead of explaining to them that if they get fish now, they might get poorly and instead, why dont they decorate the tank a little bit more (as i suggest as alternative to getting fish..) they would rather make their kidreally upset just to punish me than understand that its the lives of animals they are playing God with.
Shops have to do the best they can, where i work... we all have different opinions, one person says a week and i cant question him on that but i say 10-14 days minimum with a strict routine of water changes, a pinch of fish and bacteria supplements and every time, i write down what they have to do day by day and in tey wont buy a test kit, they bring water and i test it for them.
We encourage people to bring water to be tested but some people dont think its necessary or just cant be bothered...
Personally, i'd be happier with stricter laws to back me up... but then companies would go under... faster than they are already...
OP
OP
ColR1948
Fishaholic
I agree there are good fish shops with good staff who know their stuff, but they are few and far between, as stated earlier one person found a good one and goes there all the time now and they avoid the bad one.
I avoid a few bad ones and now travel that bit further to a couple of good ones but it is worth it.
Again the question of getting the fish in a hurry I can understand so this has already been brought up, if the LFS, gave or even sold mature media that would be a step forward in my eyes rather than say to the lady with the child you can't have the fish yet.
So the lady with the child wouldn't go somewhere else she would buy of you, rather than lose a customer you gained one.
I avoid a few bad ones and now travel that bit further to a couple of good ones but it is worth it.
Again the question of getting the fish in a hurry I can understand so this has already been brought up, if the LFS, gave or even sold mature media that would be a step forward in my eyes rather than say to the lady with the child you can't have the fish yet.
So the lady with the child wouldn't go somewhere else she would buy of you, rather than lose a customer you gained one.
I honestly, honestly, think this is the key. Everyone (ok, we're already doing it on this forum!); shops, magazines, animal welfare, all need to really push the fact that bacteria in the filter is the vital, life support system that people need to keep fish.
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