White Spot

[Tommy Gun]

my lfs gave me some eSHa oodinex that is safe to use with inverts in tank aswell? anyone heard or used this?

While I have never used it, I did ask one of my guys at work if he had ever used it, which he has and went on to say that he used it with inverts present and didn't see any problems come from it.

I find that statement rediculous as it's usually me or Andy that's trying to smash beginner misconceptions and it's you that always comes to reinforce them...

To be honest, I am not sure what you are talking about so if you could be more specific, then I would be happy to justify any of my comments. Just to clarify, that sentence was aimed at Pengy666 and was not meant to be argumentative. In fact, what I was trying to say that this 'UV effective-ness' debate can lead to very strong opinions being made or is heavily based upon experience....which we both know that all of our experiences are slightly different so often times, hobbyists might begin stating his/her opinion in a manner which implies that it is a fact.

My other main point here is that, some of us are focusing too much on the UV versus Ich aspect...and hence, it becomes easy to say that they are worthless or a waste of money. HOWEVER, this lack of effectiveness on ich does not mean it isn't greatly helping us avoid algae and/or bacteria blooms. That being said, it isn't always appropriate to be telling everyone to skip buying a UV sterilizer.

Perhaps I am not doing my best to explain that I am in no way trying to support the addition of UV, nor say it is worthless but like I said, I am just trying give an opposing viewpoint.

Because if they wait until night then they are guaranteed to have a sleeping fish to prey on. This is how cryptocaryon survives in the wild.

Hopefully you can understand that I am not trying to say you are wrong about this statement, but I am wondering if you could point me (us) to supportive information on this comment? To be honest, you have been saying a few things that I have never once heard/read about before....and you will have to trust me, I have been extremely active on forums like this one for the past couple years or so - point being, I probably should have heard this by now.

Fish can change their internal pH very quickly, so pH shock is almost never a problem. O2 and temperature should be at acceptable levels.

I would also like to see some supportive information on this statement as well since, again, I have never once heard of this ability in saltwater fish until I met you....and that probably shouldn't be the case if you are right. And by "pH shock", do you mean osmotic shock?

Also....if pH shock is not an issue, then why has this term been coined in the first place...and why is it such as huge topic in this hobby?

Science, experience and nature say otherwise.

Just out of curiosity, are you implying that the pH of your saltwater tank changes?

I also wanted to point out that last night and for a little while tonight, i began browsing through your beloved fishbase.org website and found the "Check for Aquarium Maintenance" link - which brought me to a page with a list of other websites you can click on to learn more about the hobby side of a fish. In short, since you seem to be so adamant that fishbase is such a reliable website, let me point out that in many cases, those links are to other fish forums, so I assume that they have ensured their validity before placing it there. Anyways, like I said, I browsed through quite a few of the more popular SW fish and in 99% of the cases, the pH listed on the profile was some variance of 8.0 to 8.5 so wouldn't this suggest that there is at least some consistency within the oceans? In fact, I also looked at some of the same fish, but from different locations in the world, and guess what? Same thing held true.

but freshwater baths work because the huge osmotic shift in the surrounding water, which can actually cause the parasites to take on water and explode.

Ahhhh, ok. Thanks for agreeing with me then! I mean, if the protozoa is harmed this dramatically by a rapid change in the surrounding water....then certainly fish cells would also be harmed in a similar, if not the same manner. Hence, large and/or rapid changes in items such as pH, salinity, and TDS, among others, are a concern for our fish.

Saltwater fish can survive for a fair amount of time in fresh water, so a freshwater bath shouldn't kill them but it could cause some stress

True....but my point regarding observing the fish during a FW bath being important is based upon the fact that you would be placing an already stressed fish into even more duress - hence, IMHO we really need to keep an eye on that because the fact/idea that a SW fish can live in FW for X-amount of time may not apply to a 'sick' fish.

 

[Lynden]

Hopefully you can understand that I am not trying to say you are wrong about this statement, but I am wondering if you could point me (us) to supportive information on this comment? To be honest, you have been saying a few things that I have never once heard/read about before....and you will have to trust me, I have been extremely active on forums like this one for the past couple years or so - point being, I probably should have heard this by now.

From wetwebmedia:

"After 3-7 days, as tomites or theronts they break out of the cyst (typically at night, when reef fishes are often "sitting on the bottom") and swim into the water in search of a host fish, in a to several hours to a day or two at elevated temperatures they must find a fish host or die. If the parasite is lucky (and its host fish not so) it will find a host and burrow into its skin or gills. This "free-living" swimming stage is the opportune moment for chemical treatment."

And from Reefkeeping.com:

"There is another interesting observation I found in my investigations concerning the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans. Mature trophonts leave the host and tomites exit the theront/cyst in the dark (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Imagine if you will, a fish that randomly acquires a single Ich parasite. After a couple of days when the trophont is well fed, it prepares to drop off its host but waits for the environmental trigger of darkness. Meanwhile, the fish prepares to "bed down" in its favorite hiding spot in the aquarium; the same fish occupy the same spot practically every night. Now, the trophont leaves the fish, encysts, and begins to multiply. Several days to weeks go by and that same fish returns to its same spot at night, only this time there are hundreds of infectious theronts seeking out a host/victim in the same area. I am sure some of you are thinking that this is absolutely diabolical. Others can appreciate the simple beauty of this plan. To me, it is just another reminder of how remarkable evolution and adaptation is.?

I would also like to see some supportive information on this statement as well since, again, I have never once heard of this ability in saltwater fish until I met you....and that probably shouldn't be the case if you are right. And by "pH shock", do you mean osmotic shock?

Bignose writes about this ability of fishes. This particular writing applies to freshwater fishes but since the pH and GH of saltwater is much less variable than in freshwater, then logically wouldn't "pH shock" apply greatly moreso to freshwater fish than to saltwater fish...? Wouldn't this in turn indicate that acclimation times of more than about an hour do more harm than good for saltwater fish, in the form of accumulating ammonia and lowering oxygen? Something to think about.

Also....if pH shock is not an issue, then why has this term been coined in the first place...and why is it such as huge topic in this hobby?

It's a common misconception, yes; but a misconception none the less. Acclimation times can be important but pH is rarely an issue in saltwater fish, and only in freshwater fish if the pH difference of water is several points away. Water hardness is of much greater concern but saltwater isn't highly variable when it comes to GH because of the buffering effect.

Just out of curiosity, are you implying that the pH of your saltwater tank changes?

Not that I know of, but the pH of many hobbiest's tanks do on a day/night cycle (having to do with CO2 uptake of zooxanthellae), and so does that of tide pools fed by springs.

In addition, I keep numerous euryhaline animals and all of them were purchased in water with an sg of roughly 1.003 or less, and I acclimated them to full strength sea water within an hour and a half. I have done this at least a dozen times and none of the fish were harmed in any observable way from the process, and indeed our own brackish expert Neale Monks states that mollies "can be almost dumped into seawater from a freshwater tank without problems". Care to explain how these fish all survived if osmotic shock is such a huge concern?

the pH listed on the profile was some variance of 8.0 to 8.5 so wouldn't this suggest that there is at least some consistency within the oceans? In fact, I also looked at some of the same fish, but from different locations in the world, and guess what? Same thing held true.

I never doubted this and it is definitely true. Salt water has an excellent buffering effect, but other values (salinity, temperature most notably) are often free to fluctuate on many reefs in the world.

I mean, if the protozoa is harmed this dramatically by a rapid change in the surrounding water....then certainly fish cells would also be harmed in a similar, if not the same manner. Hence, large and/or rapid changes in items such as pH, salinity, and TDS, among others, are a concern for our fish.

...no.

Certainly you must realize that fish and protozoa are not merely a taxonomic order or class away from fishes, but a kingdom. There can be substantial difference between different phyla even within animals; for instance, a freshwater snail (among others) will die within seconds if dropped into full seawater, but a feeder goldfish can survive for much longer. The two possess different skin and osmotic systems, and fish tend to be by far the most resilient of ornamental aquatic organisms.

my point regarding observing the fish during a FW bath being important is based upon the fact that you would be placing an already stressed fish into even more duress - hence, IMHO we really need to keep an eye on that because the fact/idea that a SW fish can live in FW for X-amount of time may not apply to a 'sick' fish

Fair enough. Will pass on. I think I might have made a bit of a mistake on this regard; DO adjust pH for a freshwater bath if possible, but pH shock isn't normally a concern for fish and freshwater baths can most certainly still work even if pH isn't adjusted as the time period simply isn't long enough for any harmful effects regarding osmostic shock to take hold. If one was to drop a SW fish into FW and leave it there, then we might have a concern. From wetwebmedia:

"All to regrettable, as this simple protozoan could be eliminated by simple pH-adjusted freshwater bath protocols in the course of collection from the wild, transport through chain of custody/supply, and otherwise can be largely avoided by dips, quarantine from hobbyists' and institutions' tanks."

Even further, I didn't use the internet when I first started freshwater fish keeping and it wasn't for months after I set up my first salt tank that I signed up at this web site. I always used to use the "float and dump" method or even just the "dump" when I was in a hurry. Only one fish could have possibly died from this - a severely compromised blind cave tetra that was dumped into water several degrees F. below the tank he was in before. I have acclimatised more than a hundred fish. Care to explain why all those didn't die if "shock" in it's various forms is so important? Not saying it isn't necessarily but my experience tends to indicate otherwise...

 

[mbu man]

well its the 3rd day today of using the treatment.
my blennie still has it very slightly, hes bashing into the rocks aswell.
seams to be freaking out a bit aswell, swimming fast from side to side at the back of the tank. its almost as if he dont like the treatment as ive just added the last dose.
all of my other fish,inverts,corals and anemones are fine.
just wish the white spot would go off the blennie, he used to look funny pocking his head out of a rock, but now all he seams to do is sit in a food clip that is stuck on the side of the tank!