Where Does Bacteria Come From?

[raptorrex]

it also pionts out that if you have too many bacteria in your aquarium, this can itself lead to an excess of ammonia and lack of oxygen!! the problem with your failed cycle??

Not the problem with my failed cycle. I seriously doubt that from the day I added water to the tank there were too many bacteria in my tank. And considering I was running 4 airstones off a Rena 200 airpump (for 20 to 30 gallon tanks) in a 10 gallon tank, I know there was no lack of oxygen.

i think you may find that airstones do not add much to the oxygen content of the water. a fact well established on this forum.

if youi had bothered to read the link, you would understand my comment about, low oxygen. if you cant be botherd to, so be it, but the information is there.

 

[rdd1952]

I did read the article. The heterotrophic bacteria you are speaking of were not an issue. This tank had absolutely nothing in it for them to consume. It was an experimental tank simply for perfroming cycling experiments. No plants, no substrate, no fish. Only water with ammonia added to raise to 4 ppm, filter (HOB), heater, the probe of a digital thermometer and airstones and attached tubing.

As for the airstones, oxygenization occurs at the surface. It's not the bubbles IN the water that adds oxygen, it's the disturbance they create when they reach the surface. I have not seen the threads you refer to that say they don't add oxygen but would like to read them if you can provide links. To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to add oxygen to the water without surface disturbance and air bubbles are the best way to provide those.

Just like the heterotrophic bacteria you were eluding to using the oxygen in the tank, nitrifying bacteria also need oxygen. In a cycling tank with temperatures of 85+ degrees, aeration is mandatory or there would be not be enough oxygen to keep the nitrifying bacteria (or any others for that matter) alive off.

 

[tmack]

Boboboy - I said I had no doubt that there are nitrifying bacteria in soil. I just stated that I don't believe they are the ones that we need in our tank, and that it's not as easy as just throwing some dirt in the tank to get a cycle going well. The link you sent gave no proof that soil has the correct bacteria we want. Give me some hard evidence on the soil bacteria being the ones we want and I'll then accept it. If you haven't read any of the research papers on Bio-Spira, and what went into identifying and isolating the bacteria that we really need, here are links to several of them:

http/www.marineland.com/science/biospira...Nitrobacter.asp

http/www.marineland.com/science/biospira...Nitrobacter.asp

http/www.marineland.com/science/biospirarep/15AmOxBact.asp

http/www.marineland.com/science/biospira...itrobacter2.asp

Sorry, but you haven't really backed up what you said about the soil bacteria. Like I said, I wish it was that easy.

 

[raptorrex]

rdd1952, having read quite an amount on this, it seems clear you have more information on this than anyone else. i have read quite a few papers trying to id without doubt what the bacteria is that supports our aquariums. you seem to know and there in is the problem.

the links tmack posted above are among some i have read. they quite clealy state the search is still on for the exact type of bacteria, we all use. my question is, if this is so, how can anyone discount any of them? you have made many statments of fact about what is going on with these lill critters, when the scientific world still does not know.
so you have info they dont?
whilst it would be wonderful if you did, i very much doubt it.

untill we descover the id of the bacteria we use, none can be ignored, however strongly we feel. we also cant say how they got there, fact is they do, as i would guess it not magic, it must be air, water or ourselfs, or most likley a combination of the lot. which i think was establishe a few posts ago.

as a thought, the link i posted also states quite clealy that there are more than one collony of bacteria at work in our tanks, so we need to look at any and all, dismissing one as you do, is perhaps not so wise.

 

[rdd1952]

The link you posted does say that there are at least 4 types present and active in the tank but still only one nitrifying bacteria.

The first is basically the same as a cory or ghost shrimp so to speak. They scavenge the tank and eat the junk and produce ammonia rather than process it.

The second are the pathogens. We all hope that they never rear their ugly heads and wipe out or fish. They are most dangerous when there is stress in the tank that lowers the fish's immunity and makes them susceptible to disease.

Third are the anaerobic bacteria that live in the dead areas of the tank where there is no oxygen. They are the ones we worry about creating gas pockets in our sand substrates. I would think that in a tank with gravel substrate these would not be present as there should be oxygen everywhere in the tank.

So for cycling purposes, the nitrifying bacteria are the only ones that matter. The others may have an effect on the cycle. For sure the first one does as it produces ammonia and would be the bacteria responsible for breaking fish flakes when you try to cycle with the wather than with bottled ammonia. But if there are no nitrifying bacteria, there won't be a cycle at all.

That brings us back to the original question. Where do the nitrifying bacteria come from? From what I have read, I am pretty much convinced that they enter the tank in the water. I still don't know (and never will ) why my experimental tank never started to cycle. Are theree true nitrifying bacteria in garden soil. Maybe, maybe not. The fact is, we don't normally use garden soil in our tanks so it isn't where they come from. It is either from the water (most likely), the air (I'm pretty much convinced not) or from from things we put in the tank - substrate, decorations, plants (all tanks don't have live plants so not a true option), or our hands/arms (also convinced it's not likely).

I have definitely learned things from the research I've done on this thread and from the links other have posted. And at my age, I always worry about learning new things because I figure I've got to forget something to make room for it. I just hope what I forgot wasn't important.

 

[tmack]

Boboboy: All I can say further on this is that if you're going to recommend something like adding soil to a tank to get it cycling, you should have some good evidence to back it up & you haven't given any. I made no recommendation to start all this going - you did, and I see no need to have to defend myself. It may be possible that the right bacteria are in soil, but give evidence of it before you make a claim that it does. I go with evidence, like studies with Bio-Spira, not recommendations based on a guess that any type of nitrifying bacteria will work. And if you've read all of the Bio-Spira research well, we may have have indeed finally identified the optimum bacteria type for aquaria - that's why products like Cycle, Bio Zyme and Stress Zyme do nothing for most people - they may contain nitrifying bacteria but not exactly the type that's really needed under most tank conditions. Sure there are more than one type of bacteria in our tanks - that's a well known fact. And other bacteria are working in salt water tanks. And bacteria are always mutating into new forms.

I guess if we go back to the original topic, and based on what Bignose said, they're most likely coming in with the tap water, and how fast they multiply is based on pH and other factors in our tank water.

 

[rdd1952]

Now, which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[tmack]

Now, which came first the chicken or the egg?

I think that deserves a new topic, or better yet should be placed in a some chicken forum! hahahaha!

 

[rdd1952]

I think that deserves a new topic, or better yet should be placed in a some chicken forum! hahahaha!

Believe it or not, one quick Google found this.

 

[tmack]

I think that deserves a new topic, or better yet should be placed in a some chicken forum! hahahaha!

Believe it or not, one quick Google found this.

Actually I do believe it. Seems like there's a forum for just about anything! I need to look for one on bacteria!