When Is A Cycle Finished?

Wow. Tell me you do that off of the top of your head, and I'm just going to go break my pencil & throw it in the garbage.

So using my as of yet whole pencil, that would give you 11.2 ppm ammonia in a week, converting to 40.32ppm nitrate, a fairly reasonable amount.
 
LOL, no, I used an Excel spreadsheet. I can multiply numbers in my head, but that's why we have tools like excel. ;)
 
So based on these calculations and the fact that my tank is easily processing 4-5 ppm ammoina within 12 hours I 'could' potentially stock the tank with say the 15-20 rummy nose Tetra's and the 6 Apistogramma's and more than likely not run the risk of causing distress to the fish? Ideally I want 15 Tetras but was advised to slightly overstock to ensure the bacteria already established was well 'fed'.
 
A mature bacterial colony is capable of doubling every 24 hours. A newly cycled colony is not mature. That being the case I would stock with half the amount of tetras, waiting a week or two to add more. The bacteria dying back will not be a problem, as when you do increase stock it will grow to accommodate the new stock.

Also, overstocking is something you want to try when you have a little more experience with fish behavior & aquatics in general. With all the tanks I have running I can't remember the last time I did a water test. With experience the fish's behavior will tell you when testing or further investigation is needed.
 
Cheers Tolak, I used to have 5 tanks 9 years back but had a substantial break. So although I'm new on here I have kept fish in the past. The main difference for me is the fishless cycle. 9 years back the advice was always use hardy fish at 5 or so to the tank and monitor your water while gradually stocking the tank so the fishless cycle is new to me. I just tested my water and the ammonia is back to 0.00ppm 12 hours after raising it to 4ppm. NitrIte is still 1.00ppm.
 
Ideally I want 15 Tetras but was advised to slightly overstock to ensure the bacteria already established was well 'fed'.

Hi Stormy,

I think it was me who advised that, but not to keep your bacteria well fed. I suggested you should stock the tank a bit heavier than you had planned, as one of the benefits of fishless cycling is that you should be able to fully stock the tank all at once, should you want to do so. However, this benefit is lost soon after the fish are added and bottled ammonia is stopped as the excess bacteria start to die off due to lack of food.

To give an extreme example, if you now stocked your tank with 3 tetras and didn't add fish for say 2 weeks, your excess bacteria would have died off and you would have enough bacteria left to process the waste from your 3 tetras (this is what always happens, supply meets demand if you like). Now, when you come to add more fish, the bacteria can double in around 24hrs as Tolak mentions, so really the most you could add at once would be another 3 tetras, if you are to avoid mini cycles.

Had you stocked 20 tetras at the outset, you wouldn't have this problem and could quite safely stock another 20, rather than 3.

In fact, (extreme again) you could in theory stock so lightly (say 1 tetra) that the benefit of fishless cycling would be almost lost altogether, as you would experience mini cycles each time you add additional fish (same as you would with a fish-in cycle).

I was recommending stocking more heavily on that basis, as it is a benefit exclusive to fishless cycling (as opposed to fish-in cycling) and its a shame to lose it. Why take 10 weeks to stock the tank and risk ammonia spikes when you can do it in 1 day with virtually no risk?

If you only want 15 tetras, obviously don't stock 20 tetras, but stock as much of your stocking list as you can at the outset to retain the benefit you have well earned.

Anyway, this could be another thread in itself, so i digress..........

Cheers :good:

BTT
 
Well since you do have previous experience, which I did not realize, stock away. I always like to err on the side of caution with new members here, I like to see everyone have an enjoyable experience with aquatics.

As long as you have a compatible mix as far as aggression & territory is concerned you can really overstock a tank that has been cycled fishlessly. If you don't mind the increased maintenance involved, which doesn't bother many folks, including myself, you can have a really full, busy tank, one you can sit & watch for hours.
 
Ideally I want 15 Tetras but was advised to slightly overstock to ensure the bacteria already established was well 'fed'.

Hi Stormy,

I think it was me who advised that, but not to keep your bacteria well fed. I suggested you should stock the tank a bit heavier than you had planned, as one of the benefits of fishless cycling is that you should be able to fully stock the tank all at once, should you want to do so. However, this benefit is lost soon after the fish are added and bottled ammonia is stopped as the excess bacteria start to die off due to lack of food.

To give an extreme example, if you now stocked your tank with 3 tetras and didn't add fish for say 2 weeks, your excess bacteria would have died off and you would have enough bacteria left to process the waste from your 3 tetras (this is what always happens, supply meets demand if you like). Now, when you come to add more fish, the bacteria can double in around 24hrs as Tolak mentions, so really the most you could add at once would be another 3 tetras, if you are to avoid mini cycles.

Had you stocked 20 tetras at the outset, you wouldn't have this problem and could quite safely stock another 20, rather than 3.

In fact, (extreme again) you could in theory stock so lightly (say 1 tetra) that the benefit of fishless cycling would be almost lost altogether, as you would experience mini cycles each time you add additional fish (same as you would with a fish-in cycle).

I was recommending stocking more heavily on that basis, as it is a benefit exclusive to fishless cycling (as opposed to fish-in cycling) and its a shame to lose it. Why take 10 weeks to stock the tank and risk ammonia spikes when you can do it in 1 day with virtually no risk?

If you only want 15 tetras, obviously don't stock 20 tetras, but stock as much of your stocking list as you can at the outset to retain the benefit you have well earned.

Anyway, this could be another thread in itself, so i digress..........

Cheers :good:

BTT

Sorry to over simplfy what you said BTT (DOH), when I said well fed I meant exactly what you typed above i.e not to lose the bac already established and risk have to rebuild the population with potential 'mini cycles' as stock as added, I just did not word it anywhere near as well as you.
 
Well since you do have previous experience, which I did not realize, stock away. I always like to err on the side of caution with new members here, I like to see everyone have an enjoyable experience with aquatics.

As long as you have a compatible mix as far as aggression & territory is concerned you can really overstock a tank that has been cycled fishlessly. If you don't mind the increased maintenance involved, which doesn't bother many folks, including myself, you can have a really full, busy tank, one you can sit & watch for hours.

I understand, its best never to assume that anybody has any experience! :good: As for stock, I'm looking at Apistogramma cacatuoides (2 male 4 female) 15 Rummy Nose Tetras, 15 Cardinal Tetras, 4 or 5 Oto's, some shrimp and maybe 6 or so cory if the Apisto's dont totally dominate the entire bottom of the tank. I was planning on getting the Apisto's, shrimps and Rummy Nose Tetra's first with the cardinals, oto's and corys to follow.
 
Sounds good, with the exception of the otos. They need a mature tank, they are quite sensitive. I would wait at least a few months before adding them.
 
wow thanks for the maths Bignose. :good:


so in realtiy assuming a normally stocked tank with bog standard community trops they're only gonna produce maybe 2/3ppm of ammonia a day. so in fishless cycling terms if you're filter can process 3ppm of ammonia and nitrite down to 0 in 12 hrs then that's enough to be able to stock the tank.

would cycling with only 3ppm instead of 5ppm be any quicker?
 
would cycling with only 3ppm instead of 5ppm be any quicker?

Since the filter bacteria double roughly every 24 hours given ample food and the right temperature, I think that aiming for 3 ppm instead of 5 ppm would save a grand total of...... 1 day. Because a colony that can process 3 ppm would be able to process 6 ppm the next day.

Yes, 5 ppm is probably above and beyond anything but the most heavily stocked tank, but the idea is to have a safety zone, and I think that it is still a good goal to aim for.

I know that we are all eager to own and enjoy our new fish, but these things taqke time. If you are in a real hurry, you can try Bio-Spira, because while not all reports have been good, at least some of the reports are good. It seems to depend on whether the bottle was refrigerated properly the entire time or not. The Bio-Spira doesn't care where the ammonia comes from, any more than the naturally grown colony cares. Do a fishless cycle with Bio-Spira. If it works, you'll be cycled in 2 or 3 days instead of several weeks.

edited for spelling
 
Another option to Bio Spira is a media donor. I've shipped media a few times, from as close as across town to as far away as Texas I believe. This works best in cooler weather, as frozen or cooked nitrifying bacteria are going to be dead. Ship the same as fish and it works well, unlike fish you can increase the transit time to a few days.
 
I know that we are all eager to own and enjoy our new fish, but these things taqke time.


yup, one of my favourite lines to begineers at the moment (which I've robbed from someone off this board but I can't remember who) is, you'll probably be keeping fish for the next 10 years+..... waiting another 1/2 weeks to make sure everythings set up well is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Try and put things into perspective and have a little more patience.
 
Finally, let's say this lemon tetra is in a 20 U.S. gallon tank. That's 75.7 L. 0.000 012 434 kg is equal to 12.434 mg (multiply by 10^6). 12.434 mg/75.7 L = 0.164 mg/L and since at dilute concentrations a mg/L is roughly a ppm, this means that one lemon tetra in a 20 U.S. gal tank makes about 0.16 ppm of ammonia per day.

Well done on the maths Bignose...one thing though, mg/L expresses the same thing as ppm no matter what the concentration
 

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