Wheat in flaked foods.

[GaryE]

Okay, fair points. Why do people feed fry live foods if the prepared foods have more nutrients?

Something doesn't add up for me. I read the nutritional breakdowns on prepared foods, and they are good.

But while I am in the world of anecdotes, I see a huge difference in results with live foods. If the very best prepared food I have ever found, bug bites flakes, gives me under 50% of the eggs live foods do, and other big name brands give even less, something is off. This has happened for decades, to the point where food preparation is a serious element in how I keep fish. Remember, I enjoy breeding my fish. Flake is for fish I'm not trying with.

A lot of my fish look at the best of flakes like I look at Costco lasagna. It just ain't right to them, and how palatable it is is probably part of it. So are all the small elements of nutrition that aren't on the label.

I don't feed frozen daphnia to my fish because while they are appealing live, they are a lot of shell dead. Mosquito larvae are the bomb though.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well frozen is about as close to live as I get. But, I breed Hypancistrus plecos and they get a diverse diet which is meatcentric. I messed with live way back but it was more than I wabted to deal with and I moved to frozen. I then assed Repashy foods and my feesh breed like rabbits. But I also iuse flake and sticks and bits.

Iam just starting to mess with Fluval Bug Bites and Ebo- Aquaristic insect and mussel. I just goe some Omega one to try as well. I am looking to replace the kensfish foods I have used for years as my commercial food.

I use frozen cyclops, artemia and faphnia for fry. I keep some frozen bba on hand but they are too expansive to use regularly. But the fry can get anything sinking that gets soft.

I also use Hikari algae wafers. But my go to food for breeding is the Repashy Spawn & Grow:

Spawn & Grow – Fresh Water
Conditioning Gel Premix

Our Growth and Conditioning Formula for Insectivorous and Carnivorous Freshwater Fish..

INFORMATION: This product is designed as a “recovery formula” for malnourished and stressed imported specimens, as well as for conditioning Broodstock. Also great for raising fry. This formula is high in fat and not suitable as a staple diet for most species.

INGREDIENTS: Squid Meal, Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Schizochytrium Algae, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Spirulina Algae, Dried Kelp, Locust Bean Gum, Potassium Citrate, Taurine, Watermelon, RoseHips, Hibiscus Flower, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower, Paprika, Turmeric, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as preservatives), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Manganese Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Copper Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Selenium Yeast. Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2- Monophosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex).

Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 14%, Crude Fiber max. 5%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 9%.

 

[Byron]

Why do people feed fry live foods if the prepared foods have more nutrients?

Not everyone does, it depends upon the species and the food. Many fry are so tiny that feeding them is very difficult. I always use dried leaves that I collected in the autumn in the back garden. Oak is ideal, also maple, beech, basically any hardwood tree. Dried almond leaves are available in some fish stores. The value here is that once they begin to break down, they produce a lot of infusoria which is the microscopic first food of all fish, and the fry will grow healthier and faster with dried leaves present. I raised pygmy cory fry, pencilfish fry, other tetras fry, using dried leaves and then moving directly to prepared foods like Omega One Shrimp Pellets for cories, or powdered (if necessary) flake food. Back in the 1980's I raised brine shrimp for Apistogramma fry, but I would not bother now, there just is no superior value nutritionally.

Jack Whattley was one of the most knowledgeable discus breeders and authors in the 20th century, and in his later years he frequently wrote that nutrition of quality dried foods was so superb it easily out-competed any need for live foods.

I am unsure why it is said here that daphnia is ok frozen (what difference is there between these foods that daphnia is ok and not others?)

I said this because daphnia are insects, and insects are the premier food for most species. Which is why Bug Bites is so good. Insects have the necessary nutritive value far more than worms, even shrimp. It is the natural food of most species we maintain. Even cories feed primarily on insects and insect larvae, then crustaceans, according to examination of the stomach contents of many wild fish. Worms were far down the list. [I learned this from Ian Fuller.] Fish in the tropical regions spawn at the start of the wet season. They do this for one main reason--insects and insect larvae for food for their fry, plentiful in the flooded forest.

 

[Divinityinlove]

Not everyone does, it depends upon the species and the food. Many fry are so tiny that feeding them is very difficult. I always use dried leaves that I collected in the autumn in the back garden. Oak is ideal, also maple, beech, basically any hardwood tree. Dried almond leaves are available in some fish stores. The value here is that once they begin to break down, they produce a lot of infusoria which is the microscopic first food of all fish, and the fry will grow healthier and faster with dried leaves present. I raised pygmy cory fry, pencilfish fry, other tetras fry, using dried leaves and then moving directly to prepared foods like Omega One Shrimp Pellets for cories, or powdered (if necessary) flake food. Back in the 1980's I raised brine shrimp for Apistogramma fry, but I would not bother now, there just is no superior value nutritionally.

Jack Whattley was one of the most knowledgeable discus breeders and authors in the 20th century, and in his later years he frequently wrote that nutrition of quality dried foods was so superb it easily out-competed any need for live foods.



I said this because daphnia are insects, and insects are the premier food for most species. Which is why Bug Bites is so good. Insects have the necessary nutritive value far more than worms, even shrimp. It is the natural food of most species we maintain. Even cories feed primarily on insects and insect larvae, then crustaceans, according to examination of the stomach contents of many wild fish. Worms were far down the list. [I learned this from Ian Fuller.] Fish in the tropical regions spawn at the start of the wet season. They do this for one main reason--insects and insect larvae for food for their fry, plentiful in the flooded forest.

I checked fluval bug bites ingredients and the main ingredient is just black fly larvae. It is as other types I checked filled out with wheat flour, and the long list of supplements I am unfamiliar with the names of and therefore have alot to research to make sense of this, as until now I have always believed that whole foods, unprocessed, fresh, moisture rich foods are best for us all, human an animals alike. I know a friend suggested dry foods are better for my cats due to added supplements but I still see it as basically cereal. They add vitamins to our cereals but it still makes me feel like total crap, at anytime but especially compared to eating fresh fruit in the morning. So it's all a bit confusing for me conceptually.

Main point is if the main ingredient is black fly larvae, how would I get a varied diet? Should I combine with the frozen foods but focus on insects? Maybe also plankton?

BTW, I always keep a couple of almond leaves in my tank, for the tannins. Now for my shrimp. Perhaps if I cut them into pieces, they'll decompose faster and the fry can feed on the infusoria faster?

So, in conclusion, should I not bother buying varied seafood like cyclops, krill etc or maybe algae wafers etc as I had ordered on my last run with the supplier I linked?

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[Divinityinlove]

Something doesn't add up for me. I read the nutritional breakdowns on prepared foods, and they are good.

But while I am in the world of anecdotes, I see a huge difference in results with live foods. If the very best prepared food I have ever found, bug bites flakes, gives me under 50% of the eggs live foods do, and other big name brands give even less, something is off. This has happened for decades, to the point where food preparation is a serious element in how I keep fish. Remember, I enjoy breeding my fish. Flake is for fish I'm not trying with.

A lot of my fish look at the best of flakes like I look at Costco lasagna. It just ain't right to them, and how palatable it is is probably part of it. So are all the small elements of nutrition that aren't on the label.

I don't feed frozen daphnia to my fish because while they are appealing live, they are a lot of shell dead. Mosquito larvae are the bomb though.

Ah yes, the mosquito larvae is what I meant to mention..

@Byron so, if the main ingredient in the bug bites in black fly larvae, would frozen mosquito larvae and frozen daphnia compete in terms of a staple diet? Because I have a freezer full of mosquito larvae right now lol

 

[Byron]

There is something to keep in mind here, and I think I am correct in this, but if someone has evidence to the contrary let me know. Of all the natural foods we have mentioned in this thread, by which I mean insects, insect larvae, shrimp, krill, worms, and such, one has the highest nutritional value, and that one is insects and insect larvae.

Fillers--I don't worry about this if it is wheat cereal, but I do worry (or would not buy it) if it said wheat meal. Same holds for whole fish as compared to fish meal. Both these latter may come from fish, but they are in completely different worlds nutritionally. The Omega One and New Life Spectrum flake and pellet foods I mentioned earlier have whole herring and whole shrimp, not meals, and this makes them better nutritionally.

Varied diet...very true. I feed three prepared foods alternatively: Bug Bites two or three times a week, and then for upper fish one or two different flakes and for substrate fish one or two sinking foods. It depends upon the fish. I use Omega One Veggie Disks if herbivore fish are present, but not otherwise because cories cannot digest plant matter well and it is best not to feed it.

 

[GaryE]

There is something to keep in mind here, and I think I am correct in this, but if someone has evidence to the contrary let me know. Of all the natural foods we have mentioned in this thread, by which I mean insects, insect larvae, shrimp, krill, worms, and such, one has the highest nutritional value, and that one is insects and insect larvae.

The thing I don't understand is that bloodworms are insect larvae. I haven't seen the paper showing problems with them, but I don't doubt your research.
The next problem is wingless fruit flies... maybe we focus on larvae because they tend to be small, like adult fruit flies.
I treat white worms as a treat and conditioning food - they have such a quick weight gain effect that I am cautious. But to condition breeders? Excellent.
I can't get blackworms here, but they have an excellent reputation for conditioning and triggering spawning as well.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I'm jumping in late, but feel I may add some clarity...

My friend, @Byron pointed to the article I wrote quite some time ago for our CNYAS fish club newsletter, the Reflector: Commercial Fish Foods.

Back in the day, serious fishkeepers became concerned about commercial fish foods made with low grade fish meal and large amounts of grain and/or grain starch as binder/filler. Although wheat may increase the protein value in the crude analysis, fish can't really digest grain so it passes through as excess waste!
Now not all fish meal is created equally as some is made from cannery waste while others are made from whole fish (not table quality, but whole fish instead of just heads, skin, and bones. These low quality fish meals are typically loaded with preservative and sit in a warehouse until sold to a fish food manufacturer.

Now with some rare exception, most processed fish foods are made using various dried meals. Because of this, some grain and/or grain starch is required as a binder. So we will see some form of grain in the ingredient list, but hopefully not near the top of the list.

We also should take into account that fish food manufacturers have done a LOT of R&D and fortify their fish foods with vitamins and minerals not found in any live foods, even in combinations.
So I feel that it's always prudent to have a good quality commercial food as the staple and augment with live and/or frozen foods.

 

[Divinityinlove]

The thing I don't understand is that bloodworms are insect larvae. I haven't seen the paper showing problems with them, but I don't doubt your research.
The next problem is wingless fruit flies... maybe we focus on larvae because they tend to be small, like adult fruit flies.
I treat white worms as a treat and conditioning food - they have such a quick weight gain effect that I am cautious. But to condition breeders? Excellent.
I can't get blackworms here, but they have an excellent reputation for conditioning and triggering spawning as well.

I also thought bloodworm is larvae. I should check what else it might be... @Byron perhaps you can suggest the article name where it explains bloodworm issues? Meanwhile I'll see if I can find.

 

[Byron]

I agree on what bloodworms are, but they are still not 'staple" food. A marine biologist on another forum told me they were not a food that should be fed more than once a week, as a "treat." They are high in something that is not ideal, I just can't remember what. I have also read other knowledgeable sources that similarly advise against bloodworms as a staple. I listen to these people, the same as I listen to my oncologist when he advises me concerning my cancer; he/they have the education to know more than I do.

 

[Divinityinlove]

The entire time I was feeding frozen food I didn't have any sick or dying fish. Before frozen food I had common issues with dropsie. Last couple of weeks I tried feeding the Cobalt flakes a bit more just testing out thr theories in this thread and now I have a male guppy showing signs of dropsie or bloating... The same thing I'd struggle with before I switched to only frozen. Back again. Ugh. I just don't think dry foods work for me and my tank. Something mysterious but I don't want to take risks. All I know is the entire time I was feeding frozen I Had NO issues and it was a blessing! I'm gonna quarantine this poor guy and see if I can save him but definitely think I am gonna stick with frozen and live foods in future. This guy has a bloated belly and opens and closes his mouth rapidly.... Could be constipation but as I said, before feeding frozen food, I had this problem a lot, and never did any fish survive it. Even if they'd stay that way a long time they'd eventually drop.

 

[Byron]

Maybe ou are feeding too much. A small fish like a guppy will get all the nutrients it needs from half of one flake, per day. Many aquarists feed way too much, and in fish as in humans, this is not good.

 

[Back in the fold]

I bought a Betta in November and he gets nothing but live wingless fruit flies. I have never had a fish of any kind respond to diet as well as this common Betta. He is massive , full bodied and alert. The flies mimic his natural environment food. Diet is important.

 

[Divinityinlove]

Maybe ou are feeding too much. A small fish like a guppy will get all the nutrients it needs from half of one flake, per day. Many aquarists feed way too much, and in fish as in humans, this is not good.

I agree but I feed way less flakes than when feeding frozen foods. I'm very cautious about the dry foods. I am unsure the issue but I am about to post a video of my guppy guy in a new thread and ask whether it is dropsy or not..

 

[GaryE]

No food is a staple. An insect eating fish catches ants, mosquitoes, various larvae, termites - whatever falls into the water or lights on it to breed. So bloodworms are good, sometimes. Wingless fruit flies for surface feeders? Great. Mosquito larvae? White worms? Soldier fly larvae foods? The mistake is wanting one food to unite them all. Throw that idea into Mount Doom, and vary diets.
I'm allergic to bloodworms, so I had to research why. Bloodworms are a form of Chironomid fly larvae - non biting midges. I get live ones in my daphnia cultures in summer if I leave the lid off, although maybe one for every 100 daphnia and 50 mosquito larvae.

It's easy to culture whiteworms and grindal worms, but they are too fatty to be a staple. Artemia are small, daphnia are roughage, etc. They work together.

Live food is work. It's alive, it escapes, it bites you, it has various nutritional profiles, shells and hard bits, etc. Not everyone wants to culture it, so prepared fishfoods exist. If you go that route, vary. Three types of food, or five, or seven....

When I was a kid, tetramin was the quality stuff, and I always bought staple, growth food, colour food and green food, to rotate them. It's a little easier now with the number of brands out there.
BTW - the undigestible parts are good. Not all of an ant can be digested, and the roughage helps with the passage of the food. Food is more than nutrition.