What is so bad about LFS bettas

[redbetta]

Ya , copper dt's Wowzers

 

[Synirr]

Ok, here's the thing. Serious betta breeders usually pick a specific outcome they want to produce, then go for that. They try to strengthen this one trait or group of traits and produce the best fish they can with their end result in mind. With me, I wanted to breed copper-red CT plakats, and I also wanted to breed Mini to see if babies from her would be small. So, I decided to kill two birds with one stone and start by mixing red (Mini) with copper (Ipos). Ipos was a pet store betta, but a fairly nice quality plakat, and since I knew it was going to take two generations to get copper-reds anyway it didn't matter so much what his genetic background was because I didn't necessarily need to know what I'd get in the F1. Obviously, what I got from that pairing was extremely unpredictable because I did not know Ipos's background. I got reds, green-reds, blue-reds, blue-grey marbles.. even a black one. This is why pet store bettas are not the best to breed. You simply do not know what the result will be.
If you're just breeding for kicks, then I guess it's fine so long as you're 100% sure you won't be producing VTs, but personally I think it's kinda a waste to spend all that time and effort without really trying to make something out of it

 

[DaSauce89]

synirrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you get CT Copper REds

lets me know....ILL BUY them

 

[Andie]

Serious betta breeders usually pick a specific outcome they want to produce, then go for that. They try to strengthen this one trait or group of traits and produce the best fish they can with their end result in mind.

[snapback]917655[/snapback]​

Exactly

oppositearmor, while your storebought betta may very well look fantastic - Synirr's Ipos certainly is a stunner - you've got her muddled background lurking there, all ready to thwart your carefully laid plans the second she drops her eggs. If you just want some more bettas to look after, and don't really care much with regards to colour/fin type - which is the only reason I can think that somebody who has done even a moderate amount of research on the topic could have for breeding a storebought betta - then go to your LFS and buy them there, rather than creating more bettas to find homes for.

If, on the other hand, you have a specific goal in mind, then it is well worth your money to buy a quality pair that will give you the best shot of reaching that goal.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Theres also genetic diseases to consider. Or similar things. For all you know, your shop bought bettas grandfather could have had a gene that made him blind. You don't want that passing on to any of the fry. Who would buy them? I would imagine petshops buy them for pennies each.

 

[Elise]

Good Points everyone!

LFS bettas are wonderful. I mean Carp was at petco with fin rot and ich and he is just the best pet betta. But I would never breed him.

The sad thing is, there are hundreds, probably thousands of "mutt" bettas dying at LPS each day. You definately don't want to contribute to that.

The last point is, at the end of the day it's your decision. We recommend good quality bettas because there is a market for them and because you won't be contributing to mutt overpopulation and death. But, make your decision. We arent' going to beat you up over it. It is a matter of personal opinion in the end.

 

[OohFeeshy]

One day I might do a spawn to illustrate the sort of unpredictability of shop bettas, it would be interesting to do, but only if you've guarenteed homes for them. Oh yeah I forgot. Shop bettas are usually way to old to breed, past their prime etc.

 

[mybabieshavefins]

Hmmmmm interesting thread! I must say that I agree with the rebuttals.... it IS a huge gamble with LFS spawn...

I was just curious though! If the LFS bettas are of high quality, would it still be risky to try and breed them? I'm planning on trying to breed my LFS Green-Blue crowntail male to a bred Blue crowntail female... But I know that my LFS imports directly from thailand and their fish are always VERY young. I'd say Enforcer's about 3 months old.

What do the veteran breeders think of that pairing? Still a high chance of mutts or can I hope for mostly blues, greens and blacks (the girls daddy was an orchid)?

 

[afireinside]

Ok, even though I just purchased a female betta, I think I'll get one of Synirr's babies, as I get allowance in about a week.

 

[Synirr]

mybabieshavefins -- It's risky in the sense that you have a poorer idea of what the outcome of the spawn will be, but it can be totally worth it. Like I said, Ipos was a LFS betta but he was obviously very young when I got him... not to mention copper!
But yeah, you'd probably get mostly blues out of that spawn. Is the female steel or royal blue? The genes for steel blue, turquoise, and royal blue are all the result of two alleles at one locus. Two of one allele gets you turquoise, two of the other gets you steel blue, and one of each gets you royal blue

 

[SRC]

Even when you get Bettas that are imported from Thailand at your LPS/LFS you are getting the ones that the breeder had no intrest in keeping themselves to breed and either were not quality enough, or just could not, sell on AB for top dollar.

So I would still say no to breeding them, as they are only pet quality..same as with dogs. You have some that are breeder/show quality and some that are just pet quality.

When you don't pay much for something..you should consider the source and why it's so cheap. When alot of effort goes into something and the great quality is in the outcome it isn't going to be relayed cheaply back to you.

That's why quality breeders cost $20+.

(Kelly's really don't count here..because she doens't sell her fish at all...so she is the exception to the rule imo. But I bet she would agree that not even all of hers are breeder worthy. Not every fish out of a spawn from great parents are breeder worthy..it's usually only a select few. Or atleast that's how I percieve it...as not every animal/fish from a litter/spawn obtains the attributes they should to better the line.)

 

[dwarfgourami]

As a complete outsider, I am interested to see that most of the arguments for the careful breeding of pure bettas concentrate on the need to produce certain desired colours or pretty fin shapes, rather than strengthening the health and fitness of the breed. (There were a couple of exceptions).

Is it not this attitude that has led to so many problems with guppies, who have also been bred for their colours and long tails and are now considered a much weakened fish in consequence?

When there was a similar discussion in the livebearer section it concentrated on the need to get back to a healthier, less showy strain.

Dogs have also been mentioned in this thread; again some dog breeds that have been bred for looks have ended up a lot less healthy than the much-despised mutts.

Would you say bettas are different from guppies so that their needs are different, or is this a difference in emphasis between different breeders? I haven't got any plans for breeding myself, I'm just generally interested.

 

[wuvmybetta]

(Kelly's really don't count here..because she doens't sell her fish at all...so she is the exception to the rule imo. But I bet she would agree that not even all of hers are breeder worthy. Not every fish out of a spawn from great parents are breeder worthy..it's usually only a select few. Or atleast that's how I percieve it...as not every animal/fish from a litter/spawn obtains the attributes they should to better the line.)

True that. I keep my best for myself- my second best for show and the rest are adoptarinos.

Funny thing about most fish from overseas is that most of them have questionable lines anyway. I've been told by a breeder in Singapore that they don't inbreed the piss out of a line the way we do here in America. They usually start from scratch after an F2/F3, which explains why their fish are a little better as far as health/strength goes.

 

[SRC]

Dogs bred by looks alone are often times line bred so often that it creates a weakened immune system or allows genetic defaults to crop up.

That's why you need to add new blood into the line every 3 generations..to keep bad genetics that are in every line..from cropping up into a whole litter, thus ruining your line.

This is also why not every dog from a litter is suitable for breeding. You can have 5 puppies in a litter. All "look" great and come from great show stopping parents. But what appears on the outside can be misleading to what is on the inside, 2 of those puppies when tested for genetic defaults will come out sparkling clean, while 2 may be genetic mishaps and do not need to be bred, while the remaining one could be a carrier for the genetic default, also confirming that it should not be bred.

Same goes for fish. You shouldn’t continue to breed siblings together for multiple generations..as that just multiplies the factors for genetic problems to arise. By adding in new blood you dilute the factors back down to a manageable number.

But you also don't want to breed fish that have so many visual faults that they are only going to pass that along to their offspring. As that is not bettering the line you have created, only diluting it even further into not being anything. Same with dogs...you don't want to cross species too often, because that only creates "mutts" and they are harder to place in homes.

What good is a pretty animal..that stays sick or is prone to sickness. Not much imo.

 

[RandomWiktor]

In my mind, breeding a pet store betta would be a lot like breeding a dog from the pound. It might be a lovely looking dog, with a great temperament, and perfect health... but you do not know its lineage. Maybe its father was a top fighting pit and the pups will be dog agressive. Maybe its mother was a lab with hip dysplasia. Maybe its grandfather had Von Willebrand's disease. In short, mixed bettas are just as unpredictable as mixed dogs; you will never know what you will get from breeding, and thus, breeding would be irresponsible.
Most better breeders are part of the IBC for a reason; they believe in breeding only to improve the species. It is much like most professional AKC dog breeders would only breed to improve the breed. In short, breeders should want the most healthy, consistent, long lived stock, not just the most beautiful. While an LFS betta might be gorgeous - I have a PERFECT VT with gorgeous textbook finnage and colors - you have no idea what its lineage is, and so you can not even come close to guarenteeing healthy offspring.
The other paralell we see between betta breeding and dog breeding is the issue of overpopulation. How many millions of bettas are just rotting away on pet store shelves, because they didn't stand out enough to get grabbed up into the nearest vase or plastic cup? Bettas are probably the most universally neglected and abused pet fish out there right now, and to make it worse, there are tons of them. The type of people who would be willing to buy the offspring of a petstore betta are probably not the type of people who would give them the best homes, or use them to better the species.
In short, while I am sure your betta is absolutely lovely, it simply wouldn't be fair to its offspring to breed him/her. I like your idea of getting fish from good breeders if you choose to breed, instead. Just make sure whoever you buy from is reputable, well established, and preferably part of the IBC.