What Is Going On. 3 Tanks-> All Sorts Of Fish Issues!

[KansasPrincess724]

Hey folks, so I would love some help here with my 3 tanks. I will outline the set ups for you below.
 
40 gallon

• highly planted
• lots of driftwood (bought from lfs)
• 40 gallon breeder
• set up with gouramis, tetras, bettas, blue rams, ghost shrimp, algae eating shrimp, bamboo shrimp, and some assassin snails.
• 30% water change every two weeks
• Marineland biowheel hob filter
• 20-40 gallon powerhead for circulation
• very stable, consistent, healthy water quality

55 gallon

• JUST set up on Sunday.
• Fish added Tuesday
• undergravel filter powered by two 40-60g powerheads (turns over about 350 gph)
• added air bubbler through powerheads for extra oxygenation
• no live plants
• driftwood (harvested from a local river..... I know, I know, here comes the hate mail, but I cleaned it very thoroughly. It was first bleached in a 1:10 bleach water ratio for no more than two days to kill anything that may be on the driftwood. Then it was soaked in water that was changed about twice a week for 7 months, then It was boiled for two weeks. By the time this was done the wood was nice and water logged, showed no obvious signs of serious decay (it's wood in water, it will decay eventually but no rapid signs), wood was of even color throughout sample, and had no leaching tannins.)
• I have been using Seachem's "Stability" to set it up. I started with the recommended dosage on Sunday, and have been using it daily consistently since then.
• Prime is my preferred dechlorinator
• fish in it are an assortment of tetras and some guppies

16 gallon

• My problem tank. 
  
• I started with a small goldfish about four months ago. (I am well aware a goldfish should have about 20 gallons, he was going to be upgraded within 6 months)
• That went south.... So I rehomed him with my lfs and put some guppies in there. About 12 of them and one otocinclus.
• 25% water changes weekly.
• Sits across from a window, so the tank is GREEN
• is in between set ups, so has established water but the tank is empty. (No gravel, nothin.)
• Have always had fin rot issues (I know, from overstocking, but it shouldn't bee too overstocked with the water changes and bacteria supplements I do...) and had brown algae and fish just randomly die in this tank with no apparent sign of illness and pristine water quality.

 
 
So here are my questions to you lovely folk.

The 40 gallon has some issues with fish health. Like... Fish swim around happy and colorful and beautiful then one day show up dead, or one day show up looking like we haven't ever fed them. (Which, rest assured, we do.

) They slowly deteriorate then die. Then one of the gouramis got like... this weird hole in his side behind his left fin. He still acts fine, but it's this red, huge, pit in his side. Really nasty looking. 
So does anyone have any idea what's going on???
 
The other question, is that I got a few fish to set up my 55g for my Oscar. They'll eventually go to the 40g tank, but it's an assortment of tetras.... Red Minor Tetras, Lamp Eye Tetras, Glo-light Tetras, Neon Tetras, and Guppies. (Sorry, not tetras!) But anyway, I put them in the 16 gallon for the night. The next morning I put half of them in the 55g. Then in both the 55 and the 16, the neons, glo-lights, and Lamp Eyes all turned up with what looked like nipped fins. No white fuzz or anything. Just these nipped fins. Then the neons and glo-lights got really, really thin and I lost a few. I know when you set up a tank you are destined to lose a few fish, but I just want to make sure that when the tank is ready my Oscar will be safe to go in there. I just want to make sure there are no parasites or diseases in these fish he could pick up after I put him in their water. 
So, my other question, do you all think after the tank is established my Oscar will be safe to move into the 55? Do you think this is just natural fish loss and I'm overreacting? 

 
 
Thank you for your time!!!!!

 

[sawickib]

O my goodness im sorry but you need a LOT of help on this thread, with all your tanks, first things first its terrible to use fish for cycling a fish tank. They go through terrible stress up until the point they die because they cant take it anymore. HERE is where you will learn the proper and humane way to cycle a tank.
 
Now on to your tanks. 40 gallon -

• please name all fish, and the numbers of each
• you should be doing 10-50% water changes every week, with dechlorinated water
• once a month you should clean your filter media in tank water

The 55 gallon

• This was set up a few days ago, so id imagine ammonia levels are very high, and not processed into nitrites yet
• I would suggest upping air flow, adding aquarium salt, and doing large water changes
• Subsequently you should rehome all these fish until your tank is properly cycled, your local fish store should take them in for free, or small store credit
• A oscar by itself needs a 75 gallon minimum
• sense you some how boiled the wood for 2 weeks, yes it will deteriorate, you arent supposed to biol it though, esp after you already bleached it.

The 16 gallon

• Im not sure if this tank is stocked with fish or not...
• However these problems were arising because there wasnt enough bacteria on your hard materials to occupy the amount of waste being produced, also not enough water changes and not enough taken out, i know you said you did them but this doesnt happen if you do.
• Water and liquids do not carry any beneficial bacteria for your fish, the stuff you buy in a bottle IMO is a total waste.
• You also have algae problems because its in direct sunlight, to much nutrients and nitrates.

The gourami most likely has hole in head disease, im not sure on the meds for it, but you can google it and do a little research to find the proper meds.
 
Moving all these infected fish around will only spread disease, the frayed fins is most likely fin rot and comes from bad water quality. Moving them constantly into bad environments also increases stress which then increases odds of death.
 
ALL of these problems have arrived from unclycled, over stocked tanks along with not enough maintenance, im not trying to attack you but these tanks need a lot of work and im just trying to help. Hope your fish can pull through. 

 

[KansasPrincess724]

Okay, thank you for your information. I hate to be blunt, but I know all of this. These tanks are very well maintained, I assure you. I've been doing this for around four years and never had any problems like this... And to be honest I feel sort of insulted. 
 
The Oscar is the size of a tangerine right now. He is being moved to a 125g in six months once he has gotten a bit bigger. I know they need 75 minimum, I'm not going to be inhumane to him.
 
40 Gallon...
Heavily planted, open top, powerhead to increase flow, extra oxygenation, filter. (Lots of gas exchange.) We rinse the filter media in old tank water every two weeks, and replace it once a month.
Fish in the tank- four blue rams, three red minor tetras, three neons, three long-finned zebra danios, one betta, the shrimp aforementioned, and two gouramis. That's all. Not overstocked, especially considering the set up. I'm down two rams and one gourami. The others I still have. 
 
55 Gallon...
I haven't done large water changes so I don't disturb the bacteria colony as it's establishing. I got a nice white cloud for about 24 hours, ammonia levels were high, then the next day they were headed down. 
I already have open top, two powerheads cycling 350+ gallons an hour, and a bubbler for up to an 80 gallon tank hooked up. 
The tank was started with aquarium salt.
No matter where you get your driftwood it will deteriorate, it's a natural material. I boiled it in my bath tub, in case you were curious, by boiling pots and pots of water on my stove and dumping them in there constantly. One new thing of boiling hot water at least every 30 minutes. 
 
16 Gallon...
It's not stocked anymore.
Yes, I am aware that it's got algae because it's across from a window, that's why I said it.
 
 
I think the gourami was from a bad line, because we hadn't had him long when it happened.
 
The fin rot was not fin rot. I've dealt with fin rot. I'm more curious if the red minor tetras are picking on the other fish, because I have seen them to do so and they are the only one with perfect fins.
 
My fish are not kept in poor environments. I love my fish and I have done my absolute best with them. I don't think I'll be coming back here if after just two posts in this community I was nothing but insulted. There are better ways of teaching.
 
 
 
Thank you for your time.

 

[KansasPrincess724]

If I am doing something wrong, please, I want to learn. I'm not here to make enemies or start arguments. I am here because I want to learn. So if something sounds off, please explain it to me and I will learn and improve. I just didn't appreciate being told everything I was doing wrong and that my fish were dying because of me. I'm not a monster, but after this I felt like either a monster or an idiot. 

 

[Ninjouzata]

I'm sorry you feel that way but know that was not Saw's intention at all. Everyone here just wants to help.
 
Unfortunately I am not quite sure what is going on in your 40g with the fish randomly dying.
 
Can you give us the exact water parameters (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) of each tank that you're concerned with? Is your water soft or hard? How long have you had the rams? What sort of behavior have they and the gouramis been exhibiting?
 
German blue rams will sometimes last 6 months to a year and then just pass away, this can be down to the water not being quite right for them (soft, warm water) and not knowing how far removed from the wild they are.
There is likely more to it than that which I hope someone with more experience can chime in about.
 
What are the genders of your gouramis? If they're all males then perhaps there are territorial issues and that might have lead to something happening to the one dying. Oh and what type are they?
 
With the 55 gallon, I absolutely agree that it is not humane to cycle with fish. This is your choice though and I recommend reading THIS and THIS if you choose to continue it. I personally would return the fish though and do a fish-less cycle following the article Saw linked.
 
The thing with the driftwood while yes all of it breaks down, boiling it causes it to do so more quickly which is unnecessary but lots of people do it..I'm not sure if there is a negative side effect other than it not lasting as long.
 
Were the fish with the nipped fins placed with the guppies? I wonder if all the stress of being moved around caused them to get a little more aggressive. Same thing would apply to the red minor tetras.
 
If you can get some pictures of the affected fish then that would be great.
You can upload them by going to 'More Reply Options' at the bottom and attaching files or uploading them to a photo sharing website such as photobucket and then linking them here.
 
You have good reason to worry and ask questions here and I hope we can figure it out.
You should not lose many fish when setting up a tank, if you cycle it fish-less that is. I am not trying to harp on you doing a fish-in but I feel you would have a much less stressful time by doing so.
 
I'm sorry if I'm not of much help, just trying to throw out ideas and possibly get more information. This is a little confusing for me to follow. 

 

[KansasPrincess724]

I appreciate your comment very much. Thank you. As far as the water parameters, I have been using strip tests, I think I am going to go pick up liquid tests in the morning to get a more accurate read, I will post all tank parameters then.
 
I work at a lfs, so I know that the water here is very, very hard and comes out with around 7.9-8.1 pH. Therefore, when I do water changes I set up buckets for 1-4 days in advance and wait for the pH to lower. (I put some driftwood in the buckets to help naturally lower the pH, I have never found a liquid or powder for pH that actually does anything).
 
The rams were just...rams. For about three months. Then we went on a vacation for 10 days. One of my co-workers watched my fish. After returning, my fish were acting kind of strange. I know that this is probably something to be aware of, but I'm not sure what she could have done wrong she's very knowledgeable. They just seemed so...listless. The gouramis and rams, that is.... just listless and suddenly very, very thin. Still eating for a while, but getting thinner, until they withered away. I'm questioning parasites? But I'm not sure. The fish I've lost have all exhibited these symptoms, nothing else, except the gourami with the weird hole in his side.
 
The boiling thing about the driftwood I did not know. Thank you. I had just always known that boiling got rid of the tannins which could leach into your tank and cause the poor color. 
 
The guppies and tetras were all together, yes. I had not considered the stress could make them aggressive. 
 
I will try getting pictures and uploading them in a few minutes.
 
I had some fish I was going to further transfer to the 55, but I suppose I will re-home them. The ones in the 55 already are doing so much better I don't really want to mess with them. Their color is great, they love the current, and the guppies have actually picked up breeding and dropping eggs...which they haven't done for a while unfortunately. My 16 gallon is a death tank, I think I will empty it and rinse it with hot water well and let it dry for a while before putting fish back in. I don't know what I did wrong with that tank. I really don't. 
 
 
All this being said....I wasn't even aware that you could cycle a tank without fish. I'm sorry if I seem like a fish murderer, but I didn't even have any idea on that one. So I'm sorry, for being naive there. But I say with the best interest of my animals in mind that I do promise the fish in the 55 are looking so much better. I'm going to leave them for a while in order to let them de-stress and thrive. If I can't successfully figure out why fish are dying in the 40 gallon, then I will re-home them so I don't put them in danger.
 
One more comment....I have seven betta tanks, a ten gallon, two 5 gallons, a 20 long, and a 60 that I haven't had any problems with....Not going to lie though, I got the fish in my problem tanks all from one vendor and have had problems ever since. My other tanks are from somebody entirely different. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. 
 
 
Thank you again for your help, I really appreciated it. 

Dropping eggs.... UGH. I am so sorry 

 They were dropping babies. I am aware they are live-bearers, I have no idea why I said that. Flustered, I guess. Sorry again. 

 

[Alasse]

Boiling hardwood does not cause it to break down any quicker than not boiling, just so you know lol. I have pieces of wood here i have been using for 20+yrs, some have been boiled, some larger pieces have not, and all have aged exactly the same. Maybe its the wood i use or such, but never have i heard such a thing in the Australian fishkeeping scene. Weird
 
I cycle with fish/shrimp/etc. It can be done safely but it requires a lot more work than fishless cycling and you need to have access to a good quality test kit and use it often.
 
Messing with PH usually causes more drama than it cures. Work out what PH you have and learn to work with it.
 
When you say the 40gal is heavily planted, how planted do you class as heavy? Do you have a pic at all? With the rams, they sometimes just dont get along. Do you know what sexes you had? The ones that dies may have been bullied (starved) out by the other more dominant (sometimes they will keep them away from food) So the thiness may have actually been them starving to death (through no fault of your own). Gouramis are also ones that sometimes dont get along, i have a pair and the male annoys the devil out of the female, thankfully she has places to get out of his way (in a 90gal tank), but in the 34gal i had them in prior, he would not let her eat in peace ever. Starving fish leave them open to other ailments. Just food for thought

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Wasting disease is caused by internal parasites. The fish eat but keep getting thinner. To treat this I suggest Flubendazole which you can find on this site http/www.inkmkr.com/Fish/
 
I am not a fan of Stability as it does not contain the right bacteria for nitrification. The nitrifying bacteria and Archaea do not form spores, they reproduce by dividing. Stability, by their own admission, does not contain any live bacteria, only spores. You can draw your own conclusions. But if you really hunt around their site you will find that they know this and refuse to acknowledge it. Ah heck I will show you- http/www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Biofiltration.pdf
 
So, if they know that autotrophic bacteria are the ones needed for a cycled tank, why are there none of these in Stability? Do not bother to ask them because they will never give a straight answer on this one because if they do they look pretty foolish. In order to sell their product they also make a number of factually incorrect statements about the proper microorganisms as far as I can tell since they completely contradict the science on the topic. Seachem is a decent outfit, but in this respect they sure dropped the ball.

 

[sawickib]

Hi i didnt mean to insult you in anyway last night i apologize if you felt that way, i responded to your question at 12:30 last night and wanted to make sure to help you out. I just meant that these things dont normally happen in the ordinary maintained tank, im sorry i jumped to conclusions. 
 
With the tanks that have fish in them, it would be very helpful to do large water changes, because these fish cant take high levels very well, i will also add that changing water during a cycle with fish is ok, because the fish will keep producing waste and fill up the tank with ammonia again. Again im really just trying to help you out.