What Have I Let Myself In For!

Are you so certain that animals don't think or feel the way we do? I've never had an animal tell me that! or anything else for that matter. I find it ironic that a professed scientist like yourself has the habit of using terms like "the only thing that is always wrong" or "Animals don't think or feel the way we do" I thought you science types were all about accepting uncertainty, and never giving anything absolution.

Either way I find this thread to be quickly turning into something silly, and by contributing to it any further we are only making ourselves look more and more like asses, which we have already begun to seem like. I refuse to allow some faceless internet forum post character try and dissuade me from caring for my pets in a way I am comfortable with. And also a way that has marked noticable improvements in the appearance and behavior of my fish. Case closed!

Consider this the last post I will make on this thread. Go ahead and knock it down, (I'm certain you won't be able to help yourself) if that's what floats your boat, it's certainly your right. Just don't expect me to value anything you have to say about it.

Pufferpro (the American badass)

well, that was intellectually embarassing. i would like to go on the record that not all American are this self-indulgent and determined to ignore rational input from others of differing opinion. its just the "badasses".
 
Pufferpro --

Look, let's try not to make an interesting discussion all about attacks on people's characters. There are valid arguments being made here, and while I don't agree with everyone's point of view, it's good that people discuss them.

The majority of animals are arthropods like insects. They outnumber everything else 10 to 1, if not more. They cannot possibly feel the way we do, or think the way we do, because their neurophysiology is very different.

As far as science can make out, even mammals don't think the way we do. They don't have the same self-awareness or the ability to see other perspectives than their immediate sensory input. This isn't to say dogs or cats or whatever can't be "smart", but just that if they thought and felt like we do, they wouldn't be able to survive in their ecological niches. Whether we like it or not, human conciousness appears to be unique.

If we try to force our feelings onto another animal (anthropomorphisation) we run the risk of making serious erros. My example of the puffer is a case in point. Pufferfish are territorial and solitary, and as often as people try to give them "friends", you get stories about bullying and worse. It's the same with dogs. They not only expect to be dominated, but need to be dominated if they are to be balanced and well behaved. People who treat their dogs like children end up with neurotic, aggressive, or badly behaved dogs.

All this isn't to say we shouldn't try to be kind to animals. I've spent the last 20 years of my life within biology and science education because I feel passionately about the wonders of nature. I enjoy keeping fish, I enjoy talking about fish, and I enjoy listening to others share their experiences. I'm sure you enjoy you hobby just as much, and honestly don't have any desire to try and diminish that any.

Sincerely,

Neale
 
The point I guess I need to make is that I'm trying to provide a healthy environment for my prized fish, that is, my archers and puffer. they will all eat frozen food. I do however, try and afford them the oppertunity to eat as they would in the wild. If that means I have to put in the occasional feeder for them then so be it.

8)

The GSP or Tetraodon nigroviridis is not actually a piscivore. Granted they may attack and even eat fish in a captive environment. Feeder fish are bad for puffers and shouldn't be encouraged especially as you say you are "trying to provide a healthy environment" . Fish are not their natural diet.
 
Well, okay, I will correct you.

Most reptiles do not sense prey by heat. Obviously a heat sensing organ would be useless to the vegetarian species and of no particular value to those feeding on cold-blooded prey like insects and frogs. It also wouldn't work at all under water, since currents would carry the thermal signal away. Hence, tortoises, terrapins, turtles, crocodiles, lizards, and most snakes all lack the ability to use heat perception to find food.

Only the pit vipers have thermoreceptors, organs that detect heat at a distance. These organs are the "pits" from which they get their name. The most familiar pit vipers are perhaps the rattlesnakes.

The majority of snakes hunt their prey by a combination of smell, "sound", and vision. Snakes sample the air by pulling air into the mouth where the Jacobsen's organ allows for improved olfaction. While they don't really have ears as such, so probably can't hear sound as we know it, snakes are very sensitive to vibrations in the ground and will use that sense to localise and track prey. Snakes have surprisingly good eyesight, and this is used to target the prey for the final strike.

Fooling captive snakes such as boas and garter snakes therefore relies on stimulating one or more of these sense. Wiggling dead food seductively or smearing it in the 'taste' of something they normally eat are the sorts of tricks used.

Cheers,

Neale

also when it comes to reptiles, i think that they only eat live foods because most (correct me if i'm wrong) if not all use heat receptors to sense prey, if it doesn't move, it doesn't kow it's there.

duh i knew that *smacks forhead* i rushed when typing the post as i had to leave and didn't think it out. i never had sucess feeding dead foods t omy snakes. the only time was force feeding my first ball python. he was sold before he was big enough. it literally fit in the palm of your hand and you could still see your hand around it. but when we fed him we had to literally shove it down its throat to get it to eat. it now is a good hunter and does it on his own with feeder mice. so no worries.

thanks for the correction though, i clearly should have thought about it for a while before posting.

The GSP or Tetraodon nigroviridis is not actually a piscivore. Granted they may attack and even eat fish in a captive environment. Feeder fish are bad for puffers and shouldn't be encouraged especially as you say you are "trying to provide a healthy environment" . Fish are not their natural diet.

i agree with this. puffers usually eat live worms and such in nature. they are usually scavenger like. what i mean by this is that they will swim around and eat whatever (worm, snail, etc.) it sees wiggling about. they really don't eat fish but instead tear them to shreds for what seems to be their own sadistic enjoyment (not really but it may seem so at times).
 
I read the first page and skipped over to this one to say that i agree with k17st. I know that he doesn't need to feed the live fish, but I shoukld dsay I would rather be killed in one bite, even if it isn't, it would be cut up by the throat teeth within seconds. I would rather die in seconds then freeze over a period of time. I dont know, maybe Im the only one who would prefer a quicker death....
 
I read the first page and skipped over to this one to say that i agree with k17st. I know that he doesn't need to feed the live fish, but I shoukld dsay I would rather be killed in one bite, even if it isn't, it would be cut up by the throat teeth within seconds. I would rather die in seconds then freeze over a period of time. I dont know, maybe Im the only one who would prefer a quicker death....

referring to frozen foods i presume. i always wondered that myself too. i agree i would rather have a quick and as painless as possible death than one that i am aware of.
 
Also, I don't know what would be wrong with goldfish owners? I successfully kept my goldfish without ever having needed to feed them live food, and I knew few who did.

Fella, I don't think she meant goldfish needed live food. I think she meant goldfish AS live food.

I read the first page and skipped over to this one to say that i agree with k17st. I know that he doesn't need to feed the live fish, but I shoukld dsay I would rather be killed in one bite, even if it isn't, it would be cut up by the throat teeth within seconds. I would rather die in seconds then freeze over a period of time. I dont know, maybe Im the only one who would prefer a quicker death....

The things you are missing here are stab wounds and HCl. If the fish gets mildly chewed then swallowed whole, they end up with laccerations and are dissolved alive in the stomach of the predator. I'd prefer freezing immediately (i'm quite sure that when they are frozen, they are frozen quickly, and most likely post-mortum) to being eaten by acid after being cut and stabbed.
 
Katana, where do you get youre facts? Because i think you need to read up a bit more thouraghy. Fish have throat teeth, so once they are mildy chewed, then swallowed, they wont be meeting acid, they'll be meeting hundreds of teeth down the throat. Then, maybe the one eyeball that doesnt get cut up it dissolved
 
lol wooooowww.. I was looking through old topics i posted in, and saw this one, so i checked it out. I realized i never replied, and not being one to back down..... well.. you know.... :blush:
 
lol wooooowww.. I was looking through old topics i posted in, and saw this one, so i checked it out. I realized i never replied, and not being one to back down..... well.. you know.... :blush:


you dug up a nice juicy thread though! :hyper:

could be worse :rolleyes:
 
this is one of the reasons i never text my GF . Its so easy to read a measage and feel somone is having "a go" when really they never intended it that way at all.

Most experience fish keeps would of advised against the introduction of such a fish to your tank. I hope you have learned from your mistake.


My 2 pennies

cheers

Steve
 
The whole thing was halarious...I dont know much about fish keeping because i am new but everyone was spitting out all these "facts" yet i didnt see anyone cite one source. Without backing up your argument with valid sources, to me, it means nothing... but yea a good argument nonetheless :lol:

oh and im sure monk will reply with a ton of sources because he is always right. (no hard feelings just messing with you, you seem to be very knowledgable!) :teacher:
 

Most reactions

Back
Top