Water Changes During Cycling

[pammy172]

Wondered if someone could ease the confusion in my meagre brain please.

I read as much as I can on the right way to start off your tank etc. I think I understand the cycling theory and process, ie measure for ammonia, add ammonia see ammonia drop and nitrites rise, then continue to feed until nitrites fall and nitrates rise. Wait for a consistent readings and hope all is well.

What I don't fully understand is all this about what seems to be constant water changes. Read one post on here today where someone said they were changing 50% of their water 3 times a day during cycling I just need to understand when and why one should water change during cycling, if someone could put me right that would be great. The thought of 50% 3 times a day on what will be 220 litres I need to take two weeks leave from work!

 

[Lazerus]

Not knowing the full details of that other poster who does 50% water changes 3 times daily, but is it possible they may be doing a 'fish-in' cycle??...if so, then loads of water changes are required to keep the levels always at 0ppm for Ammonia & Nitrite, otherwise the fish would be suffering from toxic water during the cycling process. So, doing water changes keeps ahead of the ever rising ammonia & nitrites until the filter media has a chance to catch up with enough bacteria to cater for the fish.

When people are doing a cycle in a new tank with fish already in the tank, the rate of Ammonia production from the fish is more rapid than the Ammonia consumption by the filter media, and so until the bacteria in the filter catches up to match this, any excess Ammonia & Nitrites present in the water needs to be taken away (via water changes) so that the fish won't suffer unnecessarily.

If its a fishless cycle, then as I've discovered myself, I need to do large water changes to buffer up my water as my pH keeps dropping to below 6, and having a ph that low will stall my bacteria growth.

So, ideally, water changes bring the pH back up to a respectable level!! (I'm using bicarbonate of soda instead of waterchanges for the moment now though...)

Does this shed any light on it?

Edited: to clarify my point further!

 

[rabbut]

Lazerus covers most of it. If you pH crahes in a "fishless" cycle though, baking powder will rectify it. About 1TSP ber 10g should do it That stops almost all need for waterchanges during a fishless cycle.

Fish-in cycles besically rely on Waterchanges to keep the fish alive, see Lazerus's post

All the best
Rabbut

 

[pammy172]

Thanks Lazarus - that does perhaps explain a little. But what causes ph to drop? We are in a soft water area and it wouldn't take much for my ph to drop to 6 or below. The lfs said my ph of round 6.4 - 6.8 was fine. Another lfs advised us to add coral sand to raise the ph - rather than water changes is this not a better approach to protect ph levels?

Lazerus covers most of it. If you pH crahes in a "fishless" cycle though, baking powder will rectify it. About 1TSP ber 10g should do it That stops almost all need for waterchanges during a fishless cycle.

Fish-in cycles besically rely on Waterchanges to keep the fish alive, see Lazerus's post

All the best
Rabbut

Thanks Rabbut - that makes perfect sense and fits with what my brain was telling me

 

[rabbut]

Long-term, coral gravel is good in soft water areas, yes It's more permanant. If pH from the tap stays at 6.8 after standing overnight, I would add the coral gravel for most tropicals.

Nitrite and nitrate are acidic and put downwards pressure on the pH. If KH is low, the pH will drop. If KH isn't low, it will depleat while pH stays fairly stable, to a point... Thats about as simple as one can make it... KH is a measure of hardness, so soft water usualy means low KH

All the best
Rabbut

 

[pammy172]

Yet again - Rabbut, thanks. The conflicting advice one gets form local suppliers is so bewildering Once my API kit arrives - due tomorrow then I can get better quality readings and report here our progress including better quality, robust ph and kh readings Really looking forward to getting going on this.

 

[Lazerus]

Well, its complicated, and I'm still only learning about it all, perhaps someone more scientific will be able to explain it all more clearly?

All I know is my own situation.

I started out with a high pH from my tap...7.8 & I was doing a fishless cycle bringing my Ammonia up to a level of 5ppm.

Now, because I introduced a high level of Ammonia in the tank via drops of Househol ammonia, and my tank also has plant substrate under my gravel which contains dead organic matter (hummas - which is a source of Ammonia also) and I also have bogwood in the tank (which naturally brings down the pH level), plus I used CO² to feed my plants (which softens the water also), my Ammonia rose higher and higher and the pH buffer totally broke down and my pH plummeted!! Doh!

What a mess!

(Edited: missing letters! Doh! )

 

[pammy172]

Cripes Lazarus hopefully ours will be a little more straightforward than that. Will try and keep it simple. Thanks for sharing your experience. Yours is one of the threads I keep tracking good luck with your cycle.

 

[Lazerus]

Lazerus covers most of it. If you pH crahes in a "fishless" cycle though, baking powder will rectify it. About 1TSP ber 10g should do it That stops almost all need for waterchanges during a fishless cycle.

All the best
Rabbut

Sorry Rabbut...I know its a typo, but for people like myself who are only learning....its Baking Soda that is used, not Baking Powder!!

 

[Lazerus]

Oh yeah, and in addition to all the above, I also got a high Nitrite reading which put an extra pressure on pH.....a crashing pH was simply inevitable!!!

It got it from all sides.

I'm wondering how its all going to work itself out!!! ha,ha! Thank god there are no fish in there, that's all I can say!

 

[Dave Spencer]

Now, because I introduced a high level of Ammonia in the tank via drops of Househol ammonia, and my tank also has plant substrate under my gravel which contains dead organic matter (hummas - which is a source of Ammonia also)...

I`m not sure what you are saying here, but ammonia will raise the pH. Apologies if this is what you meant.

...plus I used CO² to feed my plants (which softens the water also)...

Bear in mind that the effect of CO2 on the kH of water is negligible.

Despite all your apparent woes, once you are cycled it will be possible to run a nice stable tank full of wood, CO2 at 30ppm, add nitrates at 5ppm a day and all with a negligible kH. No need to buffer the water.

This hobby doesn`t have to be difficult, or a worry.

Dave.

 

[andywg]

This hobby doesn`t have to be difficult, or a worry.

Amen to that!

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, I agree, ultimately the hobby is simple. Sometimes for a beginner there are confusing stages, but things get a lot more clear and simple with each new understanding, especially if gained from direct experience.

I think that the main confusion the OP had in the first post was coming from confusing fishless cycing with fish-in cycling.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[pammy172]

Yes, I agree, ultimately the hobby is simple. Sometimes for a beginner there are confusing stages, but things get a lot more clear and simple with each new understanding, especially if gained from direct experience.

I think that the main confusion the OP had in the first post was coming from confusing fishless cycing with fish-in cycling.

~~waterdrop~~

I originally thought it must have been - until I realised that people like lazarus(doing a fishless cycle) are also doing water changes - apparently to sort out falling ph levels.

I have no problem with doing water changes where necessary but do need to be able to get my head around exactly why I might need to change the water and therefore when . This is to help me ultimately understand just what goes on in the water and when as I do have some concerns over when the fish are in about keeping things stable. We have low ph here at the best of times and if it can be so critical I need to be prepared. I'm easily confused - lol

Thanks for all the input though - much appreciated.

 

[rabbut]

Lazerus covers most of it. If you pH crahes in a "fishless" cycle though, baking powder will rectify it. About 1TSP ber 10g should do it That stops almost all need for waterchanges during a fishless cycle.

All the best
Rabbut

Sorry Rabbut...I know its a typo, but for people like myself who are only learning....its Baking Soda that is used, not Baking Powder!!

Actually, both will work for a cycle. You don't want to use Soda when there are fish in the tank, as it sucks out the oxygen, but it will raise the KH. It will also release Phosphate, which is neither here nor there in a cycling tank as your going to get lots of algea anyway, but it will work. Baking powder should always be used once fish are in though

All the best
Rabbut