drobbyb
Bowhead
Leave them in for the water change.
Water Change
- Thread starter jmain
- Start date
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Agree, leave them in. Fish stress due to water changing is a very minor thing compared to fish stress due to toxins. This would be like handing a human a blanket to keep warm when they are in a garage filled with carbon monoxide, instead of working on getting them out of there or the carbon monoxide out of the air.
Fish gills give off a significant amount of ammonia as well as carbon dioxide as a result of the respiration process. Additionally, fish waste, excess fishfood and organic plant debris are all broken down by heterotrophic bacteria (different from the beneficial ones we want in our biofilter) and turned into ammonia. Ammonia, even in small amounts causes permanent gill damage that leads to shortened life or death of the fish. In nature, the ammonia is constantly washed away from the fish gills by thousands of gallons of fresh water.
In a working freshwater biofilter, the autotrophic bacteria Nitrosomonas will eat ammonia and produce nitrite(NO2) (1ppm of NH3 will produce about 2.7ppm of NO2) which, unfortunately, is every bit as deadly to fish as ammonia if not a bit more. Nitrite(NO2), even in tiny amounts, will attach to fish blood hemoglobin proteins in the same 3D positions where oxygen would go and cause it to be destroyed, changing from red to brown under the microscope. Lack of oxygen carrying will suffocate the fish with the first symptom being nerve and brain damage, leading to a shortened life or death of the fish.
In a working freshwater biofilter, the autotrophic bacteria Nitrospira will eat nitrite(NO2) and produce nitrate(NO3) (3.6ppm of nitrate is produced from either the 1ppm of NH3 or 1ppm of NO2, I forget which.) Nitrate(NO3) is not nearly as bad for fish as ammonia or nitrite and fish have been known to live in 400ppm or even 1000ppm of nitrate(NO3.) Nitrate(NO3) is removed from the aquarium, along with hundreds of other inorganic and organic solutes that need to be removed but that we don't test for and along with algae spores and heterotrophic bacteria, during the weekly water change.
Although I still feel, jmain, that the presence of ammonia in your tap water and the large number of fish (creating a lot of ammonia therefor) and the large size of the tank (necessitating an enormous amount of work for the water changes) have created a very, very difficult situation (one of the strongest needs for having the fish re-homed that I've ever seen,) its still going to be imperative that water changes be done to at least bring the nitrite down and the ammonia down to the level that's coming in from the tap water. That level will still be better for the fish than a higher level if they are left to choke in their own circulating waste. Unfortunately, the growing of biofilters is a slow, slow thing and all of our attempts to speed it up usually don't help that much in actual practice. Marine mature media will not carry the same species of bacteria unfortunatly, so you'll need to seek mature media from a freshwater filter (perhaps that's what you were planning.)
Anyway, good luck, we all know this is a disappointing shock and not what you intended or planned but you did not have access to the information, so couldn't have known!
~~waterdrop~~
Fish gills give off a significant amount of ammonia as well as carbon dioxide as a result of the respiration process. Additionally, fish waste, excess fishfood and organic plant debris are all broken down by heterotrophic bacteria (different from the beneficial ones we want in our biofilter) and turned into ammonia. Ammonia, even in small amounts causes permanent gill damage that leads to shortened life or death of the fish. In nature, the ammonia is constantly washed away from the fish gills by thousands of gallons of fresh water.
In a working freshwater biofilter, the autotrophic bacteria Nitrosomonas will eat ammonia and produce nitrite(NO2) (1ppm of NH3 will produce about 2.7ppm of NO2) which, unfortunately, is every bit as deadly to fish as ammonia if not a bit more. Nitrite(NO2), even in tiny amounts, will attach to fish blood hemoglobin proteins in the same 3D positions where oxygen would go and cause it to be destroyed, changing from red to brown under the microscope. Lack of oxygen carrying will suffocate the fish with the first symptom being nerve and brain damage, leading to a shortened life or death of the fish.
In a working freshwater biofilter, the autotrophic bacteria Nitrospira will eat nitrite(NO2) and produce nitrate(NO3) (3.6ppm of nitrate is produced from either the 1ppm of NH3 or 1ppm of NO2, I forget which.) Nitrate(NO3) is not nearly as bad for fish as ammonia or nitrite and fish have been known to live in 400ppm or even 1000ppm of nitrate(NO3.) Nitrate(NO3) is removed from the aquarium, along with hundreds of other inorganic and organic solutes that need to be removed but that we don't test for and along with algae spores and heterotrophic bacteria, during the weekly water change.
Although I still feel, jmain, that the presence of ammonia in your tap water and the large number of fish (creating a lot of ammonia therefor) and the large size of the tank (necessitating an enormous amount of work for the water changes) have created a very, very difficult situation (one of the strongest needs for having the fish re-homed that I've ever seen,) its still going to be imperative that water changes be done to at least bring the nitrite down and the ammonia down to the level that's coming in from the tap water. That level will still be better for the fish than a higher level if they are left to choke in their own circulating waste. Unfortunately, the growing of biofilters is a slow, slow thing and all of our attempts to speed it up usually don't help that much in actual practice. Marine mature media will not carry the same species of bacteria unfortunatly, so you'll need to seek mature media from a freshwater filter (perhaps that's what you were planning.)
Anyway, good luck, we all know this is a disappointing shock and not what you intended or planned but you did not have access to the information, so couldn't have known!
~~waterdrop~~
Yes the place I do my volunteering at has a few freshwater tanks so I'm going to talk to them (the only thing is I'm not going over there till tomorrow. Which also is the thing with going to the pet store because the cloestest one is like 45 mins so actually the place I volunteer is closer.) But I'm going to test the water tonight and tell yall how it looks. I have been doing daily samples of the Ammonia just to make sure it doesn't go any higher (and it hasn't yet I actually think it got lower but its between .25 and .50 still.) But every other day I'm doing a full test for everything ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
Also wont with how I'm doing the aging of the water help to lower some of the ammoina that is in my tap water (which I I'm only able to age about 10ish gallons at a time.) Because wont it actually be better for the fish to be in water that the ammonia is testing around .50 thant 1.0? And if I do big water changes and I keep adding in 1.0 of ammonia than leaving it at .50 wont that be doing more damage than waiting till I get the aged water to 0?
Just now did my water test and ph was 7.6 my high range ph is 8.2 ammonia is .50 nitrite is .25 and nitrate is 0. Another question.... If I keep changing the water out wont that cause my bacteria not to even get created which wont help break down the ammonia or any of that
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
OK, not sure what you're thinking when you talk about aging the water. Thinking that "aged" water was good was an old tropical fish hobby thing that went out the window decades ago. One aspect of it was that back then all the water authorities used chlorine in the tap water and you could let it gas out by sitting it and never have to use conditioner. Nowadays most authorities use chloramines, so that the effect will last longer out of the pipe and sitting the water will do nothing to clear the chloramines from it. That needs to be done with a conditioner and on top of that most modern conditioners to extra things beyond just removing chlorine compounds. A top choice for beginners is Prime, which is quite concentrated and quite good at converting ammonia into harmless ammonium (use of this would of course be a good thing for you at water change time.)
I believe the other lore about aged water perhaps had to do with old tank syndrome but I forget the story for the mo so maybe OM will come along and remember it. There was a thread on here somewhere that did a fabulous job with some of why aged water had been so highly thought of prior to people having more access to practical water chemistry for tanks.
Ammonia won't go away from water just sitting around unfortunately.
~~waterdrop~~
I believe the other lore about aged water perhaps had to do with old tank syndrome but I forget the story for the mo so maybe OM will come along and remember it. There was a thread on here somewhere that did a fabulous job with some of why aged water had been so highly thought of prior to people having more access to practical water chemistry for tanks.
Ammonia won't go away from water just sitting around unfortunately.
~~waterdrop~~
See thats what I was hoping that it would do because I pretty much had no other option to help with the ammonia (besides maybe using ammonia removal products but I don't want to keep adding and adding chemicals to the tank.) Also I'm thinking about adding some live plants to try and help with ammonia. I might also use the water from my quarantine tank once all of that settles back down to 0. I'm getting a heater filter and all that jazz for that tank today. So instead of it being quarantine (since I don't have any fish that need it right now) I'll use the water from it when I get that water settled right.
What are the best live plants to put in tanks?
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
OK, its great the way you are learning and thinking! This happens in the beginner section and its great I think. We get situations that are sad for the fish, but at least something to salvage from the situations is better learning for "next time."
The two thinking ideas you've had here as I'm reading it are:
1) Set up a Q-tank with new equipment, quickly cycle it and then use *its* water to pour in the big 75g and save your fish from ammonia burn.
The problem with this idea is assuming that the Q-tank will somehow cycle faster than the big tank. Unfortunately, the limiting factor in growing biofilters is simply that the autotrophic bacteria are slow as all get-out to grow! There's just not much getting around it except for transplanting sizeable chunks of mature colonies directly into the new filter and of course you already know how hard that is to find.
2) Put in a ton of plants to cleanse the water of ammonia and save your fish.
The basic idea here is good. Many plants will indeed absorb ammonia from the water and people in the planted tank hobby often prefer fish-in cycles for getting their tanks going. So the theoretical idea is good.
In practice though its a tough road for a beginner. First of all, I believe (if I'm remembering right.. beginning to forget,lol, cause I'm a distracted guy!) you've got a big array of big fish in there. By contrast, what planted tank folks do is put in a small number of small bodied fish to provide just a trace of ammonia, depending on tank size (the big 75g is in your favor here!) Another huge thing they have going is that they've often already mastered the skills of using light and nutrients to nurture fast growth in the plants and its the growth, rather than the presence of the plants, that uses higher rates of tank substances. Now, one thing you could try would be to buy large bunches of cheap stem plants (elodea/anacharis?) with the idea of them being "throw-away" and then try to be learning enough about light and nutrients to actually keep them going. The problem is that if the plants start to die then their "help" quickly swings the other way and the debris from their dead cells (even if the whole plant isn't dead yet) are quickly processed by the heterotrophic bacteria in the water and turned into... you geussed it (!) more ammonia, ugh!
So we're really, technically, right back to where we were to begin with, which is that the reason most beginners like (even if they don't know it yet, lol) a good biofilter and a fishless cycle, is that production of ammonia and nitrite is *fast* and biofilters are *fast* and unfortunately these other ideas, while good in their own way, are just slower by comparison!
~~waterdrop~~
The two thinking ideas you've had here as I'm reading it are:
1) Set up a Q-tank with new equipment, quickly cycle it and then use *its* water to pour in the big 75g and save your fish from ammonia burn.
The problem with this idea is assuming that the Q-tank will somehow cycle faster than the big tank. Unfortunately, the limiting factor in growing biofilters is simply that the autotrophic bacteria are slow as all get-out to grow! There's just not much getting around it except for transplanting sizeable chunks of mature colonies directly into the new filter and of course you already know how hard that is to find.
2) Put in a ton of plants to cleanse the water of ammonia and save your fish.
The basic idea here is good. Many plants will indeed absorb ammonia from the water and people in the planted tank hobby often prefer fish-in cycles for getting their tanks going. So the theoretical idea is good.
In practice though its a tough road for a beginner. First of all, I believe (if I'm remembering right.. beginning to forget,lol, cause I'm a distracted guy!) you've got a big array of big fish in there. By contrast, what planted tank folks do is put in a small number of small bodied fish to provide just a trace of ammonia, depending on tank size (the big 75g is in your favor here!) Another huge thing they have going is that they've often already mastered the skills of using light and nutrients to nurture fast growth in the plants and its the growth, rather than the presence of the plants, that uses higher rates of tank substances. Now, one thing you could try would be to buy large bunches of cheap stem plants (elodea/anacharis?) with the idea of them being "throw-away" and then try to be learning enough about light and nutrients to actually keep them going. The problem is that if the plants start to die then their "help" quickly swings the other way and the debris from their dead cells (even if the whole plant isn't dead yet) are quickly processed by the heterotrophic bacteria in the water and turned into... you geussed it (!) more ammonia, ugh!
So we're really, technically, right back to where we were to begin with, which is that the reason most beginners like (even if they don't know it yet, lol) a good biofilter and a fishless cycle, is that production of ammonia and nitrite is *fast* and biofilters are *fast* and unfortunately these other ideas, while good in their own way, are just slower by comparison!
~~waterdrop~~
I ended up getting some seasoned gravel from the place that I do volunteer work at to help with my bacteria colony in my tank (well that is the plan.) Also I took 3 gallons of clean water from there and added it to my tank. With me going over there once a week right now I'm just going to be bringing a 5 gallon bucket and transporting 5 gallons at a time that is needed.
As afishdude said, there is not bacteria in the water. Technically there might be a little bit but there are thousands and millions of times more bacteria on the surfaces in the tank (which is primarily the filter media).
A chunk of filter media will do far more for you than anything else you can get out of the tank, including the water or the gravel... while they both will have bacteria, the amount will pale in comparison to the amount of bacteria in the filter media. Most of it is in there. Gravel is better than the water since it's a surface where the bacteria will multiply.. but still not nearly as good as the filter media.
I'm going to do a water test tonight and see what it comes out to be. I also found a friend who has well water so thats where I'm going to be getting my water from now instead of transporting water from 30 mins away.
Also waterdrop I forgot to put the fish back on here that I have and incase anyone else is wondering. I have tetra serpas, tetra black skirt, tetra red eye, cory cat, and a pleco
Low light fast growing plants that can get their CO2 from the air above the water are the best choice for helping control ammonia in a new tank. The typical recommendation is things like duckweed or frogbit. Another ammonia sponge is water lettuce. You will want to cover most of the water surface with floating plants to get the maximum use of the plants to remove ammonia.
I did the test this morning (only roughly 9 or so hours after adding the water and gravel.) The ammonia still tested the same but my nitrite went up to 1 and nitrate is 5.0 (which is the first mark)
I figure that just has to do with not giving the gravel and water time to settle in am I wrong here? because my nitrite was at .25 before I added the water and I had no nitrate in my tank
Did you put the gravel into the filter where it is getting a good water flow? If not, you, may want to do that to get the most that you can from that gravel sample. Any simple bag can hold the gravel where it is needed without the gravel going places that you don't want it in the filter. I see more and more statements like Chrissi's these days about how little bacteria there are in the gravel, but I used to see estimates as high as 30% of the bacteria being in the gravel. I really don't know which is right but either way you need your cloning material in a good flow path and by preference in the filter.
All I did was mix it with my other gravel.
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