Very Worried About My Fish

[Wanderer]

I think with most products it is fairly difficult to overdose them enough to be harmful to the fish.....from what i gather.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

Ammonia

I have attached this Seachem Ammonia reader accessory which lasts for a year on the side of each of the tanks. The tank with fewer fish in and the problematic filter is reading 0.05.....although the colour is slightly darker green so maybe 0.08 or so......and in the other tank it is reading 0.05 (it telms you green for alert, pale blue for alarm and dark blue for toxic, with water measurements underneath. Both tanks show green).

If 0.05 is a true concentration ammonia (rather than the TAM value used in most test kits which also show safer ammonium as well) , you need to react to save the fish and stop worrying about losing the bottled bacteria during the change.

You need to change the whole water in these tanks ASAP, net the fish into a 1/4-filled bucket of their current water, replace the the rest with similar temp dechlorinated water, acclimitise the fish to the new water by either the drip method uusing airline or adding ~20ml of tank water every 10 minutes for an hour before netting the fish back.

You are going to need similar emergency water changes several times a week for some time, these fish need food and the resultant ammonia and then nitrite will take time to be dealt with by bacterial colonies.

Seachem Prime only deals with moderate ammonia and nitrite levels for upto 24 hours using upto 5x the standard dose.

You have a massive amount of fish in these tanks, you are more than obesely overstocked, these poor Garra ruffa deserve better than this. You should have no more than 6 in each 90l tank, but then being ~15cm adult fish they need a 4-foot tank minimum. Please, do the right thing for the fish.

 

[Wanderer]

I already changed all the water yesterday. (50 litres in the morning then 70 litres again in the evening). The problem with one of the filters may have been the cause of the nitrate reading after those water changes- all the stuff inside the filter got poured into the tank after the change once the tank was turned back on. I think you misunderstood about me being worried about losing bacteria. The nitrites shouldnt have shown up after such a huge water change in a fully cycled second hand tank that came WITH a few of my fish). The filter needs sealing up again at the side with a sealant properly. I have to turn it off during big water changes which causes the stuff inside the filter to pour into the main tank.....therefore until it is properly fixed I need to do smaller water changes to stop all the debris coming in. It doesn't leak very much until the filter is turned off because of the way the water levels impact each other.

Another thing that may have happened is the tanins from some driftwood (now removed from the tank) pushed the PH levels right down to a level which may have destroyed some of the good bacteria. I'm not certain on the exact reading because I only had those strip tests to use, but it was paler/ lower than the palest square on the container's chart itself!

The products I added degrade ammonia into ammonium so it could be the ammonium that the seachem tests are reading. The fish are acting normally today and look a lot happier.

Of course I want the best for the fish; I was inexperienced. I bought the fish in the larger tank from a pedicure place and just assumed that because all these fish already lived all together in a tank the same size as mine, that they would be ok in mine too. They do not fight with each other; they seem to enjoy each other's company. But indeed I am greatly concerned with their well-being; hence my posting all over this forum concerning them.

I am only keeping them as pets- I have no intention of trying to gain financially from them.

Maybe I'm a hypocrite though because I believe in my heart that in an ideal world all creatures would be totally free.....nothing can compare to the wild and animals/ living creatures face all sorts of problems in captivity.


Anyway, I am wondering if "Seachem Purigen" will allow me to keep these fish safely.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

No amount of gizmos and chemicals are going to make it ok to keep 64 Garra ruffa that should reach ~15cm in ~180l of water. Even a tank in excess of approx. 1000l (yes, one thousand litres) would make it difficult for the average fishkeeper to keep this many moderately sized fish healthy. Does that give you some idea of how badly you are overstocked and shock you? I hope it does, you need to rehome at least 50 of them ASAP.

If you are feeding the fish so each one gets at least the size of one eye per day of food (young growing fish should be getting more than this), even if the tank does not experience ammonia/nitrite spikes, you will be forever battling to stop nitrate reaching toxic levels by doing 80-90% water changes (in one go, not split up which effectively means less of an overall change of water btw) pretty much everyday.

Keeping so many fish will also mean much more frequent cleaning of the filters, instead of about every 3 months, you should be striping them down and rinsing (without too much aggression) something like every fortnight without fail. The filter filter should be caked in faeces from their food, plus no doubt food that was picked up by the intake strainer. The impeller and its cavitity will need a good wipe with cotton buds, again using removed tank water.

This is not about the fish fighting with each other, indeed many garras are very social. It is about them being in good conditions with a manageable maintenance regime for the keeper.

 

[Wanderer]

I was told that the only part of the filter that needs changing is the wool at the top. Wouldnt rinsing the sponges and media remove much of the good bacteria, even if only in tank water? I have read that garra rufa do not reach 15cm in captivity, only about half of that. I assumed the fish would be ok because they were kept in the same size tank where they were from. I followed the advice i was given by the director who sold them to me. Also an employee there told me they hadnt ordered new stock in many years, and that the odd fish only died occasionally. I think they bred their own their though.

I have advertised the fish already to good homes. But i have not heard of garra growing 15 cm in captivity. I think they are like goldfish in this respect.

 

[sebn]

They will only "not reach 15cm in captivity" if they arent looked after correctly. If they are kept in the correct conditions and with ample space (a lot more than you are currently providing) they will grow normally. Currently they are being stunted which is not a nice way for a fish to live. Goldfish can and will grow to their full potential again, if they are kept in proper conditions.

 

[Wanderer]

In garra rufa pedicure spas many more are kept together than what i have. Before i rehomed some, i had 70 in one tank. The water looked crystal clear at the pedicure place so somehow they managed....i know they do daily big water changes.

 

[Flute]

The fish spa's are highly frowned upon by most fish keepers, they're incredibly cruel and the fish's welfare are not considered. The tanks are filthy, disgustingly over stocked and under filtered, and the fish are fed a diet of dead skin.

I for one am very glad that the fad seems to be dying out and so many off these fish foot spas are closing down

 

[fluttermoth]

Yes, I'm afraid that's true, Wanderer, however harsh it sounds.

The standards fishkeepers keep their fish at is a lot different than someone who's using them as a commercial enterprise.

They 'get away' with very heavy stocking due to those big filters and the daily water changes, but the fish will still become stunted, and not live out their full lifespan.

Tbh, I think most of these places go out of business before the full effects on the fish become apparent; it's only when people like you come along and try to pick up the pieces (which I think we all admire you for, btw, you've acted with the very best of intentions) that the problems begin to show.

 

[Wanderer]

Ok, I am going to agree with you all here.

Although the water looked clean at the place they were from, there were some fish who didn't appear in the best of health (a small quantity) such as the one I posted a picture of in my very first post/ thread here, so evidently these fish had been affected by poor water quality somewhere along the line. When I first visited this pedicure place (which I had mixed feelings about, and I only went there that one time before it closed), no-one inspected my feet or asked me if I had any creams on my skin etc. There was a notice on the window that said that people couldn't go in if they had veruccas, open sores or lotions on. I just filled in a questionnaire (but wasn't asked about the mild psoriasis which I mentioned) and went to wash my feet with water before entering the spa.

I think that such encounters with these unique "doctor fish" are a truly wonderful experience......but that they should only really take place in the fish's natural habitat, where they are wild and free.

I bought the fish for selfish reasons really.


Are you sure though that Seachem Purigem will not allow me to safely keep a few more than the inch of fish per litre/ gallon rule says?

I have not had much reponse to my Classifield advert.

 

[Flute]

Wanderer, I did not mean for my post to sound as harsh as it did! Had one too many glasses of port and my typing ability has started to suffer for it Very sorry about that! As Fluttermoth has said, it is commendable that you've tried to pick up the pieces as best as you can, and I really wish you luck with your tanks

 

[Wanderer]

It's ok Flute; I was already aware that some people feel the same way as you do because I have read similar views expressed on other websites.

I did a water change tonight of approximately 90% and rinsed all the filter sponges and media in the tank water. I tried to clean it as thoroughly as possible. Didn't really have the energy, however I want to try and give the fish a better chance of survival if I possibly can. I think the water change did stress them a bit though. Hopefully the rest and darkness they are getting now will help to relax them.

The water from doing all of this was very dirty looking indeed. I only finished it a while ago as there was a lot of cleaning up to do to.

I've got some Seachem Purigen and Seachem Stability coming tomorrow, some Seachem Paraguard, coral gravel (just to help balance the PH a bit), some more Miramo Balls (coming soon from ebay), and someone is going to phone soon too about maybe taking more fish (I just hope they indeed know what they are doing as they claim to; they have been keeping fish many years and have very large tank.....just that I wonder if the 20 fish they took last time was introducing them a bit quickly....they are all fine apparently, not sure how many litres it is but it is about 6 foot long).

I wonder if the plants I got in the post may have put some of the nitrites on previous readings into the water? I didn't rinse them and part of them didn't look healthy on arrival.

The water is still reading the same for ammonia after the huge water change I just did, but it might be slow to pick up on the change.

 

[Wanderer]

When I got home from work tonight, the Seachem ammonia reader thing on the tank now shows "safe" for the ammonia.
The nitrites now read 0 on the strip test.

 

[lolobunnz]

PHEW! Good to hear everything is clearing up for you and that someone is interested in taking some off of your hands! Soon everything will slow down to a steady stress free pace and your fish keeping will be much more relaxed. It is great that you went 'out there' to get answers you needed to help your scaley ones. warms my fart (sorry, this is the expression i've grown to use)

 

[Flute]

How are things coming along Wanderer?