Very Useful Site

[erk628]

I agree quit bashing on fenwoman she thought she found a good site and was just sharing it with us. Many of you have pointed out that the site isn't a very good site. Stop at that theres no need to pick the page apart, and theres never any excuse to bash on anyone, so please stop!!

 

[ImperfectFaerie]

I don't see any bit of bashing in here, so quit trying to stir up trouble! Yeah, the site is flawed but there are a few good bits of info, I can see why fenwoman found it useful.

 

[andywg]

I just pointed out that the site was not that great using the worst piece of advice as an example. Fenwoman responded defeding the site so I decided to look more closely and point out more of its flaws. There is no bashing, there is just people analysing a link that has been put up and commenting on the information therein.

This is a PUBLIC forum. That means anything you post will be commented on and some people will disagree with what you have put. There has been no bashing here. No one has told Fenwoman she is a fool for posting it, they have just stated that the page itself is not that great.

 

[linda1503]

Have a look at this excellent site.

Sat here with the 'post Christmas blues', no job, no money, broken oven but you made me laugh Griz, Thank you!!

 

[J.Scott]

Hi everyone,
Thought I should comment on this thread as I wrote the useful information in question!

It is published and handed out to our Customers in store, so all the information had to fit on two sides of A4. I thought it would be relatively easy to cut & past the text on to our web site. Therefore, it is not possible to cover every aspect of stocking levels, neither is it possible for it work out capacities etc. Guides will be changed to a PDF format as they are updated, for visitors to the site to print out.

You are quite right that you can't just dump a 12" fish in a 12 gallon tank. But underneath it does state stocking is for guidance only. Large fish produce far more waste than smaller fish. Therefore, when keeping large fish stocking densities should be far lower. To calculate actual stocking density requires too many variables to provide a simple formula.

Regarding marine turnover rates, the information has been taken out of context. The full sentence reads. For Reef systems filter the aquarium twice per hour, but total unfiltered circulation should be at least 10 times the volume per hour. In other words turnover the water volume e.g. with powerheads at least 10 times per hours as well as at least twice through your favoured filtration system, giving a minimum of 12 times per hour.

I don’t advise putting salt in a freshwater tank, unless as a supportive treatment, that is why the level in the table is less than 1g per litre. As some fishkeepers still think it is necessity I included it. I think inserting the words synthetic marine salt in the last paragraph would solve any confusion for the uninformed, which will be added when the guide is updated.

Free ammonia (the toxic stuff) is only formed at higher pH levels, as Discus more often kept in acidic water there is very little free ammonia formed. So if you get a total ammonia reading (the type test kits read), this will not be harmful, but should serve as a warning something is not quite right.
Both the nitrite & ammonia should have the less than sign (<) next to them, but for some reason this is on our hand out in the shop but not on our web site! 0.1 of nitrite is not ideal, but is unlikely to increase mortality levels. 0.25 for marine fish is quoted as the toxicity of nitrite to fish decreases as salinity increases.
GH is the total amount of dissolved salts present, so of coarse GH exist in brackish and marine aquariums. In marine aquariums is likely to be around 6000ppm which means you would most likely use a whole bottle of reagent measuring it. While the GH in brackish water will be lower it does not normally need measuring, again due to the addition of salt. In my tests adding 1g of synthetic marine salt to a litre of R.O. water raises the GH by 232 ppm.
I have never come across a brackish or marine aquarium with a low GH.

Anyway thanks for your comments

 

[boozybears]

I haven't seen anyone bashing fenwoman in this thread. People are just pointing out some of the errors on that site which is important to do or someone might treat that info as gospel truth.

 

[jollysue]

Thanks, Scott.

I think if anyone has bashed the site and Scott answered the questions, there should be an apology. I can't get the link to work now. Is it a forum? I really am totally dumb to most of those refined issues, so I don't know if the questions were addressed.

I didn't get the impression that fenwoman was being bashed. But the site took several bad hits. So I think those that slammed it should address Scott's post.

 

[Annastasia]

I can't access it either, jollysue. I get 404 Not Found.

 

[Erised]

It seems the spreadsheet has been updated and is now in pdf form. It can be found here:
WaterZoo

 

[andywg]

But the site took several bad hits. So I think those that slammed it should address Scott's post.

There was no slamming of the site, we were pointing out where it does not agree with the advice we give out. Why should we apologise because the site has different advice to that given on the forum (especially now it has changed to be more in line with what we said)?

I still stand by that the circulation in a marine tank should be more than just 10x especially as most reefers use the more naturla Berlin method of fitration (LR and a skimmer) for their reefs.

I also challenge the statement:

Salt is an excellent supportive treatment for many freshwater fishes when medication becomes necessary

In what way is the salt supportive? If you have a fish that has evolved over millions of years to live in almost salt free waters (such as the soft acidic waters of South America), how will placing an increased strain on the fishes osmoregulatory system by adding salt to the water benefit it in treatment. Salt has a place when treating some pararsites, but advising it as some sort of golden solution is just plain out of date. One only needs to look at some of the excellent posts by nmonks and bignose to see this.

 

[jollysue]

Have it your way. I use salt for many things, and it is effective for those things. For some fish, salt is an absolute. Nevertheless, as I said, I know nothing about many of the issues you are squabbling about. I do know that some people can get very picky and opinionated, while not leaving room for others. Opinions are just that.

It seems to me, for instance, that Scot said that the minimum circulation should be 12x per hour. You say more than 10x, so what are you quibbling about?

There is nothing in the world wrong with being gracious.

 

[andywg]

Have it your way. I use salt for many things, and it is effective for those things. For some fish, salt is an absolute. Nevertheless, as I said, I know nothing about many of the issues you are squabbling about. I do know that some people can get very picky and opinionated, while not leaving room for others. Opinions are just that.

Aquarium salt is not an absolute for any fish, ever. That is not opinion, it is fact. Freshwater fish do not require salt. Brackish and Saltwater fish (such as monos or mollies) require marine salt and all the extra minerals and elements contained therein. The site still does not say why salt is useful, nor which type and when. This does not surprise me if it is a shop as they will benefit from selling you aquarium salt.

I keep expecting to see it say that you must have carbon as well to keep another old fishkeeping myth alive.

It seems to me, for instance, that Scot said that the minimum circulation should be 12x per hour. You say more than 10x, so what are you quibbling about?

There is nothing in the world wrong with being gracious.

I say tank turnover should be more than 10x (which is what the site says). If you read up you will see where I stated that 20x is what you should be looking at (unless you get into SPS tanks where you will often see 30 and 40x turnover). That is my point, I say it should be almost double what the site says. While it is not entirely clear in my latest post when taken on its own, anyone reading through should see what I am getting at.

 

[jollysue]

Let me say this as clearly as my poor skills can say it: Some of the things you are quibbling about are highly debated among very reputable and respected hobbyists. They come down to individual experience and opinion. All the emphatic statements in the world will still only make the statements propositions and/or opinions. So far yours are just unsupported opinions.

 

[andywg]

I made one emphatic statement, regarding salt.

This is based on posts by both bignose (a scientist) and nmonks (a regular contributor to PFK and an author and editor of books on fishkeeping) and my reading of Icthyological text books (such as Fishes: an introduction to Ichthyology Fifth Edition by Joseph J Cech Jr and Peter B Moyle and Biology of Fishes 2nd edition by Carl E. Bond). Both of the above posters on this board have stated why aquarium salt is of no real use to anyone. Reading the mentioned text books makes you realise how the fish react to their water and its contents.

Fish that actually require salt do so because they come from areas that have salt in the water. These areas are either marine (defined as water with a Specific Gravity of 1.018 or above) or brackish (generally classed as 1.003 and up). These areas are not just water with sodium chloride added. Remember that brackish is where freshwater meets salt water.

There are a number (70 according to my pot of Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium reef supplement) of trace elemants and minerals found in sea water which will need to be present to keep a brackish or marine fish in the correct conditions.

Now, many freshwater fish (such as neons and angels) come from areas with no appreciable salt level and as such their osmoregulatory system has evolved to work iun such waters. Adding salt to their water is like adding salt to your drinking water, your body has to work harder and in a different way to normal in order to maintain its natural balance.

The use of salt as a tonic harks from the days when less was known about the biology of fish, and mostly hardier, salt tolerant species of fish (such as goldfish) were kept. Now we understand more about the way a fish interacts with its environment and also keep a far wider range of fish than ever before.

Salt (even aquarium salt [which is just pure table salt without any anti-caking agents]) can be useful when trying to treat for ich and some other parasites and physical problems, but it should not be considered a tonic, or a cure all to be thrown in the tank regardless of the problem.

If you want to read more on why I say aquarium salt is of no use, try these threads:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=157186

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=168186

 

[jollysue]

I made one emphatic statement, regarding salt.

Well I suppose it is alright to excuse you if you overstate your case--just this once, of course. Still I have seen several overstatements that include implications of always and never.

In order to continue this discussion, I will need some time to digest some of the material, and I just got up to go to work.

But another respected authority on fish, Ian Fuller, also a member of the forum, recently recommended a salt treatment for a sick Cory. I myself have several fish that are alive and well today, because I used a salt treatment when recommended. These are just experential evidence, but they have sold me on the benefits of salt in some situations.

Consider that many fish we keep are no longer acclimated to their original natural surroundings, but have been bred in captivity for generations and generations. My Bettas benefit greatly from the use of some salt to keep fungal and bacterial infections at bay. Salt absolutely kills bacteria. I use salt scrubs and salt crystal to kill skin bacteria for the deodorant benefits. Again experential evidence, but I can go for days and more with no odor. Can you?

Before I post this, understand that I am not interested in picking at your opinions and statements or anyone elses. This is simply to broaden both of our horizons in understanding and wisdom. But I think it would be fair to give the same grace to others as you expect for yourself.