Very confused, and upset now :(

[Helium_Junkie]

We have had a spate of deaths in our main tank the last week, mainly Guppies.
Most died after their fins disappeared completely (except for skeletal spines, no webbing though). We also lost some Glass Cats. All fish turned very white after death, and the deaths were sudden... I.e. the fish would be fine and then overnight died.

Our pH is high, at 8.1 approx, but I was told by some members here that the fish should be fine in this. I am using pH down now to try to bring the level lower. I have been treating with esha 2000 all-round treatment, but suspect that due to the high pH it is not having as much effect as it should

Its not finrot, and there are none of these common visible symptoms:
Flicking against stuff
White spots/fungal growths (alhough one glass cat turned white/cloudy inside before he died! )
Shimmying
Breathing at surface
Red marks, inflamed gills
Visible Mucus

I really cant think of any symptoms except a guppy who lost his fins would be very lethargic. (But he couldnt move very well with no tail fin )

Please, what is going on

 

[Medusa]

i'm assuming you've tested the ammonia and nitrate levels? Ammonia can burn fish's tails and skin. Also can kill a fish overnight. Did you happen to add any fish to the tank, causing a ammonia spike? Any cleaners accidently make their way into the tank?

 

[fufanu360]

cough** FINROT **cough

 

[FishDan]

I don't know about your missing fins, but I would stop messing with the pH. If something is affecting your fish, the additional stress of a possible pH crash or swing is not going to help. I have glass cats (only ones I have in common with you) and have had them for about 8 months. My pH is 8.2. I can all but assure you the pH is not causing your fish deaths. I hope you find out what it is though, sorry I can't be more helpful, I have yet to expereince any of these kinds of problems so I have no practical advice for you.

\Dan

 

[reg2k2]

Search on 'alkalosis'....not sure that's what's going on here, but it is said to affect the fins.
I personally do consider 8.0 high for community fish, at any rate cause for concern. JMO

to lower pH:
-filter with peat
-use R/O water, mixed w/ salts or tap water.
-add wood...it *is* supposed to lower it, but I can't say just how much...in this case, I would go w/ one of the above.

Products like pH-down tend to work only temporarily...because of the realationship between pH & KH, which I don't fully understand....a little read.
Oh, and whenever adjusting pH, try to do so slowly...no more than .2 in 24hrs recommended.

ps. I've never kept guppies or glass cat's, but a quick search brought up a suggested 6.5-7.5 for glass cat, and mid-7's for gupp's. One page noted 8.2 as 'way too high' for guppy comfort.

curious: were/are they kept in the same parameters at the shop??

 

[FishDan]

I personally think that the pH "ranges" for fish are not the hard and fast rules that people make them out to be. I think of them as "prefered range" versus "required range". And I don't think that any pH is "way to high". So long as the fish are properly acclimated and kept in a stable pH. Stability is they key. When you attempt to change the pH in many cases stability is lost. A fish acclimated to my pH of 8.2 will do fine, so long as it is properly introduced and acclimated to the pH. Furthermore, since I buy my fish locally, they come from water that is similar in pH value. Life has an amazing way of adapting, and the same is true of your fish. My supposedly fragile angel, shrimp and glass cats, and those of others, are doing fine in my water or water of similar quality. Maybe we are just lucky, but I know my fish are thriving. Healthy color, appetites and I have yet to experience any sickness or unexplained deaths in my tanks. I feel that a stable pH is far more important than what the "suggested" pH is.

\Dan

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Well, I am also not so sure that a high pH was the root cause, and finrot is supposed to leave ragged red edges to fins, not complete fin loss... right?

I suspect that the high pH has prevented treatment from working against a different culprit. Some form of fungus perhaps. The strangest thing is the lack of symptoms.

I am lowering pH now with pH down, by about 0.1 point in 24hours, or less. It will be slow but hopefully better for the fish. I am continuing treatment

All Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate levels are fine: 0/0/<10.

Still confused

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Update:
I added 3 female fighters to my tank, after a clear streak.
All 3 died after a couple of days

Again, no symptoms. pH is 7.8, all parameters are normal... wtf?

 

[FishDan]

How long was your "clear streak"? Maybe it wasn't long enough and the problem presisted and affected your neew fish.

Did you ever find out what was causing the problem in the first place? Without knowing what the cause was, adding new fish is probably not such a good idea.

If you still suspect your pH value is the culprit (which I still highly doubt for your earlier fish, though it is a possability with your new fish) it may be best to ask what the pH value at the store you purchased the fish is. If it is similar to yours, acclimate normally. If it is vastly different, acclimate longer. If you don't acclimate long enough and the pH is very different, that could cause pH shock and kill your fish. By itself, however, a high pH will not do this, so long as it is stable.

\Dan

 

[Helium_Junkie]

The pH in my tank is stable, staying at 7.8. The fish have come from tanks at 7 and 8 pH, and from four different places, fish have died from each place. I really don't know what the problem is

Cant see any symptoms, no white spots/marks, no flicking against rocks...

Interestingly, one of my glass cats 'rolled' yesterday, just kinda rolled over in the water then righted itself. It did this twice in a row...

The problem has effected several neon tetras... but mainly guppies and the female fighters. Also effected have been several glass cats who turned slightly 'cloudy' a day or so before death.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[babyfish]

Please stop messing about with the ph, any fish bought from a 20 mile radius of your home will be acclimatized to the local water conditions unless specified otherwise in the shop. Changes in ph will stress the fish and leave them open to secondary infections.

You need to begin a water changing routine of at least 20% daily and run carbon in your filter to remove all traces of the medications you have already put in the tank.

Clean the gravel at the same time.

The glass fish that turned white/cloudy would appear to have a problem with it's mucus coating, this can be aggravated by parasites velvet/ich, the fish produces a thicker slime coating to try and remove the parasites.Examine your fish carefully as velvet is not very easy to see. It can also be aggravated by bad water conditions.

The missing fins are more than likely due to finrot, this can be quite difficult to clear once it has a good hold on the fish and as you have found out when it reaches the body the fish dies. I have used methylene blue on finrot, but you have to catch the fish and paint it on for the best effect, once daily is usually enough, otherwise treat the tank for fungus and finrot.

It would be best not to add any more fish until the problem has been cleared up for at least 1 month, all fish carry bacteria and pathogens, the healthy ones fight them off, fish that have been stressed by illness as yours have will be vulnerable to re-infection from new fish.

A hospital/quarantine tank is a good investment, if you keep a spare air-powered filter in your main tank then you can use it to set up the tank on the day you need it. If you have external filters then simply keep a spare sponge in it to use when needed

 

[Helium_Junkie]

I'm not changing the pH anymore, we tried for a time, but then we moved the tank to an area with lower pH water... (long story).

Activated carbon and 20% daily... 20% is surely too much? Its a 170 litre (40 gal) tank and 20% would be a lot of water daily.

Should I continue medicating at all? Or run carbon for a couple of days and discontinue treatment.

What does Velvet look like? How would I recognise it?

 

[babyfish]

20% on a 40 gal tank is only 8 gallons, you can easily change that much in about 15 - 20 mins. The fish won't be strressed by this and will certainly feel better for it.

Run the carbon for at least 24 hours to remove all medications from the water and do at least 2-3 water changes before beginning any further courses of treatment. Then follow the instructions on the meds as for water changes.

Velvet looks like a very fine scattering of gold dust on the fish, it's difficult to spot unless you look for it
hth

 

[Helium_Junkie]

OK, UPDATE!

One of my wagtail platys has opened a wound on her side (looks like a flap of skin) by flicking against the gravel. This is the first real sympton other than the guppys losing their fins (agreed as finrot).

She also has avery swollen belly.

Swordtail was seen flicking today as well.

I have carbon in the filter, no meds... did a 20% change. (I wasnt bothered by the time it took, just by the amount of water being changed).

So, gonna look for some parasite treatment 2moro. Anything else I should do?

 

[littleme1969]

Thats definetley fin rot, no doubt about it. If left untreated the whole tail will go especially on livebearers that are more fragile to PH changes.
You do have to be carefull with PH. But not to the point of lowering it, just find a shop near you that has the same PH within about 0.3 as yours. Thats about the limit for most fish types. Any more change than that will result in some degree of PH shock.
PH uppers and downers are rubbish and I would't touch them with a barge pole . They do far more harm than good.
My PH is 8.2 from the tap. and I keep neon and glow light tetras with no problems and have never had a death. Its more about the PH the fish we raised in, than what is right for them in their natural enviroment.
Adding wood to your aquarium will lower the PH by about 0.4 -0.5 over a period of time. This is better for the fish as it does not stress them. Also its known to be benifical to the aqariuma ballance all round.
Its always best to remove and treat fish away from the main tank in a hospital tank. Take 50% water from your main tank and 50% clean that way its not too much shock for the fish. Its also far cheaper on medication with samller tanks. Plus if the fish does die, you dont have to worry about not finding it and it rotting, plus the other fish nipping at it and picking up the problem too.
Also when bringin in new fish its best to isolate them for 2 weeks, so if they have a reaction to water changes etc...yo can treat it without afecting your other fish. The add water from your main aqwuarium over a period of a week . The fish will then be less likely to have problems when you add them to the main tank.