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Velvet, and Platy question

Rocksie

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Hi. I believe my Red Mickey Mouse Platy has Velvet. She has a pale sort of circular area on her right side behind her eye. It's very subtle and I just noticed it today. I read that stress can cause fish to come down with Velvet and one of the issues I saw listed was bullying. She is definitely bullied. She used to have a companion Red Mickey Mouse but he (or she) died of unknown causes. I have a pair of Sunset Wags and the male Sunset chases the Red Mickey Mouse whenever she comes near. She hides most of the time and keeps her dorsal fin clamped. The Sunset female recently gave birth and I have the three fry we found in a net breeder enclosure. I don't want to use a medicine that will hurt the fry. Would the Mickey Mouse Platy be better off in a tank by herself to get away from the bullying? Or would she suffer from being isolated? I've read that Platys are gregarious and like to be kept in groups. Unfortunately we didn't do a lot of research before getting these fish (there are also Glo Fish and a young Black Lyre-Tail Molly). We simply looked for pretty ones labeled "Beginner." I finally got the water quality to a good point. I don't want the Velvet to spread but I don't want to damage the fry or my plants either. I'd like to spare the Mickey Mouse from being bullied but I don't want her to become despondent from being alone either. Please give me your best advice about the Velvet and what to do about the bullied Mickey. Thank you!
 
Can you post a photo? That will give us a better idea of what it is. Your water parameters would be useful too.
 
How does one go about trying to get a photo of a fish? All I have to work with is the camera in my phone.

I've been using 6-in-1 test strips. I can get out the Freshwater Master Test Kit tomorrow and do a more accurate test of the water parameters.

I can TRY to take a photo of the Mickey if she'll show me her right side. Problem with the phone camera is that it will focus on the surface of the glass rather than focusing on the fish. It seems that it would be awfully traumatic for her if I netted her out to take a picture of her but if you think she'd get over it and that a picture would be a big help in figuring out what I should do to help her I guess I could net her out for a minute. What do you think?

I don't want to lose anymore fish! We started this fish-keeping adventure in mid-late August and have lost 6 fish! Mostly in the early stages. 2 of those fish stayed really, really small and I think they were weak and sick when we got them. Red Wags half the size of the other Platys. The Black Lyre-Tail's parents both died. We lost one of our original Glo-Fish Danios -- probably due to newb problems of not knowing about cycling tanks. And we lost the Mickey's companion. That little guy was the last one we lost. I couldn't detect any visible signs of illness. I love these beautiful little fish. I want them to be healthy!
 
Here are my water parameters according to my Freshwater Master Test Kit:

Regular pH solution indicated pH 7.6; confusingly, the High pH solution gave me a reading of 7.4
Ammonia solution looked closer to the 0ppm color than the 0.25ppm color
Nitrite tests at 0ppm
Nitrate looks like 80ppm

I few weeks ago I added a Nitrate filter pad to my Marineland Penguin150, in addition to the other regular filter pad. Maybe I should replace the nitrate pad.

I gave the fish a bit of garlic and some veggie tablets last night. The Mickey Mouse unclamped her dorsal fin and seemed to really enjoy the veggies and the garlic.

Any tips on trying to photograph a fish?
 
The description does not sound like Velvet. Treatments are best avoided unless one knows the fairly exact disease and can treat it with the most effective product; otherwise adding medications of any sort will tend to increase stress on all the fish, making things worse.

The only cure for harassment is to separate/remove fish. Sometimes one can avoid this extreme by a large tank with lots of decor (chunks of standing wood, plants, etc) to break up the area, providing more places for fish to "hide."

Water parameters impact fish health, and here we need to know the GH. This you should be able to get from the water authority, check if they have a website. Livebearers require mineral in the water, and it would be good to know the GH. A pH in the 7's is fine for livebearers, but the GH is the more critical aspect.

Nitrates at 80 ppm is too high; 20 ppm is the maximum, though some fish may have issues with this, but livebearers should be OK. Are these from the source water at all, or solely occurring within the tank? The latter is much easier to deal with. Nitrate does impact fish, long-term, or the higher the level. The best way to think of it is as something that is adding more stress, basically weakening the fish bit by bit. This means it has more difficulty with other aspects of its life, and will be more susceptible to problems and disease. Keeping ammonia and nitrite at zero, and nitrate below 20 ppm, using our API liquid tests, is a good preventative for a lot of problems.

Byron.
 
I have been having trouble with my KH. It has been unstable. My tap water, which comes from a well, is very hard and has a high KH but in the tank it was dropping. I'm not knowledgeable enough about biochemistry to understand why my buffer was dropping. I was advised to add baking soda, which I did and that brought it closer to normal but still not up to the level of the tap water.

I had been planning to take all the fish out and do a major overhaul of the tank's aquascape, adding a sponge filter in addition to the power filter, and adding some driftwood and quite a number of additional plants. I'm hoping the additional filtering, plants, and hiding spots will improve both the water quality and the bullying issue.

I'm worried about moving the fish to their temporary tank since it has more perfect water parameters and I wonder if that difference will shock them. I was thinking of draining most of the water from the temporary tank and siphoning water from their regular tank into it so they'd have similar water parameters to what they're used to.

The more I look at the Mickey Mouse, the more I doubt she has velvet. Thank goodness!! But I read that sub-optimal water conditions can cause fading which is sort of more what it looks like. So I need to figure out why my buffer keeps destabilizing and fix the nitrate situation. I put a fresh nitrate pad in the filter. I plan to do a partial water change today and tomorrow and maybe Monday too since I'm not sure I'll have time to do the redecoration until Tuesday or Wednesday.
 
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I have been having trouble with my GH. It has been unstable. My tap water, which comes from a well, is very hard and has a high GH but in the tank it was dropping. I'm not knowledgeable enough about biochemistry to understand why my buffer was dropping. I was advised to add baking soda, which I did and that brought it closer to normal but still not up to the level of the tap water.

This is rather puzzling. First off, do you remember the numbers for the GH, and do you happen to know the KH (carbonate hardness, or Alkalinity)? The KH is the "buffer" for the pH, but the GH is the dissolved minerals and these three are connected.

It is unusual for the GH/KH to fall in the aquarium if they are fairly high in the source water, and if due to calcium and magnesium (the most common "hard" minerals). While organics (peat, wood, leaves, etc) can lower all three, this is minimal if the GH/KH are on the high side as the KH will buffer.

Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is not advisable. This is only temporary in buffering (if it even does), but it also builds up, and sodium is not good for fish.

I had been planning to take all the fish out and do a major overhaul of the tank's aquascape, adding a sponge filter in addition to the power filter, and adding some driftwood and quite a number of additional plants. I'm hoping the additional filtering, plants, and hiding spots will improve both the water quality and the bullying issue.

Sounds good. Except I wouldn't be inclined to add a second filter. "Over filtering" is a myth (meaning, there is no biological benefit unless things are out of balance to begin with) and as we've been discussing today in another thread, water current does impact fish one way or the other.

I'm worried about moving the fish to their temporary tank since it has more perfect water parameters and I wonder if that difference will shock them. I was thinking of draining most of the water from the temporary tank and siphoning water from their regular tank into it so they'd have similar water parameters to what they're used to.

It depends upon the degree of the "difference," and this involves primarily GH and pH, but also KH. Without numbers it is a guess.

I have used water from the existing tank with the fish to primarily fill a temporary tank, such as when I am tearing down and re-aquascaping a tank and the fish go in a smaller temporary tank. Or you can mix half and half.

The more I look at the Mickey Mouse, the more I doubt she has velvet. Thank goodness!! But I read that sub-optimal water conditions can cause fading which is sort of more what it looks like.

Anything "out of the normal" can cause stress, and stress is the direct cause of 95% of all fish disease. Pathogens may be present, but it is the stress weakening the fishes' immune system and general weakening of their physiology due to the stress that prevents the fish being able to deal with the pathogen. This includes the GH, KH, pH, temperature, nitrate, (and of course ammonia and nitrite if present), unsuitable tank space (meaning, too small for the proper development and habits of the fish species), unsuitable tankmates, insufficient number of the species for shoaling species, unsuitable aquascape (something a fish species needs is missing), filter current...as you can see, the sources of stress are many. Avoiding as much of these as possible is the key to healthy fish.

Byron.
 
Hi Byron!
Argh! I mixed up GH and KH! I meant to say that the KH in my tank dropped over time from the tap water reading of 180 ppm all the way down to 40 ppm! GH is 300ppm.

What would knock the KH so out of whack and how can I stabilize it?

I guess I'll just store the foam filter I was going to add to the tank for if I ever get another tank or if I need it for an emergency.

I had an airstone going in the tank but turned it off a while back though I don't remember why now. Something or other I read. Is it okay/advisable to turn it back on?
 
Hi Byron!
Argh! I mixed up GH and KH! I meant to say that the KH in my tank dropped over time from the tap water reading of 180 ppm all the way down to 40 ppm! GH is 300ppm.

What would knock the KH so out of whack and how can I stabilize it?

I have a basic understanding of GH/KH/pH but I'm not a chemist and when something like this happens we need a more knowledgeable member, like Steven if he sees this. He may be able to explain things. But regardless of that, I myself would not do anything to raise the KH here. From your collective data, I can't see any issue, and when one starts fiddling with water parameters the interactive relationship of things can cause real issues for the fish.

I guess I'll just store the foam filter I was going to add to the tank for if I ever get another tank or if I need it for an emergency.

Seems a good idea. I like sponge filters; all my smaller tanks, from 10g up to 40g, have a sponge filter. I have fish that like quiet water, living in slow streams, lagoons, ponds, etc, sand I have lots of plants in my tanks, so this works well. I use a canister on the larger tanks.

I had an airstone going in the tank but turned it off a while back though I don't remember why now. Something or other I read. Is it okay/advisable to turn it back on?

Air stones are something with which I am not enamoured. The idea behind adding them is to increase water movement and provide more surface disturbance so the natural gas exchange is increased. This is intended to provide more oxygen coming in to the tank, and conversely CO2 being driven out. If you have no live plants this can't really harm anything. But with plants, CO2 is essential for photosynthesis, and there is only so much being produced naturally. There is a school of thought today that gas exchange is not what everyone used to assume, and CO2 can be brought in to the water like this, but I have my doubts; so far I have found no evidence to substantiate this, so I stay with the long-held (and scientifically proven) view that increased surface disturbance drives out CO2 rather than the reverse.

Now, that brings us to the KH issue. The pH is related to the carbonic acid in the water, and CO2 produces this. So there may be some connection here, which someone like Steven again may enlighten us about. As plants have now been mentioned by you, I would forget about any bubblers.

Byron.
 
Shall I a) start a new thread about my unstable KH?; or b) search for a thread about unstable KH that already exists? Perhaps both?

My new plants have been in a holding tank and there is a snailpocalypse. I guess I should have used a bleach bath. Are snails really that bad to have in a tank?
 
Shall I a) start a new thread about my unstable KH?; or b) search for a thread about unstable KH that already exists? Perhaps both?

My new plants have been in a holding tank and there is a snailpocalypse. I guess I should have used a bleach bath. Are snails really that bad to have in a tank?

Last question first, no, they are in fact your best friend. Snails eat organics, which includes fish excrement, breaking it down faster for the various types of bacteria. Snails get everywhere, do a cleaning service we aquarists could never duplicate because it is not only thorough, it is completely natural. The small snails like pond, acute bladder (these two look much alike), or Malaysian Livebearing are ideal inhabitants. They do not eat healthy plants. They will exist at the level according to their available food. I have hundreds in my tanks.

Might be best to start a new thread on KH. Others will see it and join in.

Byron.
 
If you are getting a sponge filter might I suggest one of these, I have one in my Betta tank ( the small version ) and they are great, Cleaning is easy you just pull the foam off and rinse it, I only clean one sponge at a time about 6 weeks apart.



Aquarium Fish Tank Betta Fry Shrimp Bio Sponge Filter Double Head XY-2831/2822

s-l1000.jpg
 
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Last question first, no, they are in fact your best friend. Snails eat organics, which includes fish excrement, breaking it down faster for the various types of bacteria. Snails get everywhere, do a cleaning service we aquarists could never duplicate because it is not only thorough, it is completely natural. The small snails like pond, acute bladder (these two look much alike), or Malaysian Livebearing are ideal inhabitants. They do not eat healthy plants. They will exist at the level according to their available food. I have hundreds in my tanks.

Might be best to start a new thread on KH. Others will see it and join in.

Byron.

Ah! That's what I felt to be true. Glad to hear it! I will now happily bring the snails along with the new plants into the fish tank! Thank you SO much for all your help and advice!!
 
The Red Mickey Mouse hid extremely well for a few hours after I did a 25% water change. She seemed to have disappeared completely until I turned the light back on to search for her. Her dorsal fin was normal and not clamped but I did see her "flash" several times and she was trailing white, thready poo, so she must have some kind of parasite. Might an improvement in water quality help her recover?
 
If you are getting a sponge filter might I suggest one of these, I have one in my Betta tank ( the small version ) and they are great, Cleaning is easy you just pull the foam off and rinse it, I only clean one sponge at a time about 6 weeks apart.



Aquarium Fish Tank Betta Fry Shrimp Bio Sponge Filter Double Head XY-2831/2822

s-l1000.jpg

These are the type of sponge filters I use in my smaller tanks. Hagen used to make them under the name "Elite" but I can't find them any longer so presumably they no longer are making them. But there are other brands, like those pictured here, that are the same basic design. They come in single sponge as well as the dual sponge pictured here. Very efficient filtration.

Byron.
 
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