Using Leaf Litter For Infusoria

[Far_King]

Sorry to hear that
 
I hope you don't lose any more.

 

[Byron]

Hi Far_King, thank you

 
I still have much learning to do about this. Regarding oak leaves, what I do know is that old English oak is fine but black oak is toxic. I've been back to the same tree I've used before because I know it's old English oak. You can tell if it's black oak by the leaves as they are a different shape.
 
Thank you for the link Byron, I shall have a read today and see if I gain a little more learning! Next time I go into the bargain book shop in the town centre I'll try and remember to get a pocket guide to trees
 
I did read a good article online yesterday from a guy who's works as a tree specialist but is also an aquarist and he uses what he finds at work in his tanks. I'll see if I can find the article again and post the link for other interested members

 
The leaves have now sunk so I'm about to check on my baby for this morning and see if I can re-arrange these two leaves so the baby can get to them easier. I'm so desperate for it to survive now!

here's that article I read. My computer remembered it!
 
http/www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/leaves-for-aquaria-full-article.htm

 
I just noticed, this TFH article is the same as the PFK link, same author and info anyway.  Didn't notice this until now, as I had previously read both at different times without connecting.

 

I dropped a handful of beech leaves in my tank for the Khuli loaches today and then had to remove them all as they floated all over the place. I don't think they had been off the tree long enough

 
Further to my above post I have bad news. Less than 24 hours after putting the leaves in (and then taking them out within about ten minutes) I have lost four rummy-nosed tetras (and a cory is sick); they just slowly turned white then died. I have checked my stats (perfect) but did a 75% water change anyway and cleaned my filter to up the flow. I hope I have stopped the rot now and although I can't be sure it was the leaves, I shall take no chances again.
 
I had 52 R-N Tetras before this and they have all been in there for at least six months. None of my other fish, except for the cory, have been affected.
 

 
I would suggest there is more to this.  Beech is one of the trees recommended for wood and dry leaves by several sources, so the species itself should be safe.  The leaves may not have been completely dead dry, or perhaps there was some residue on them from toxic substances such as chemicals, pesticides?  Depends upon where you collected them.  Also, after collecting, lay them out to thoroughly dry, I usually take 24 hours, before I bag them.  And it may be next year or beyond before this lot of leaves is used.

 

[Akasha72]

I collected and added the two oak leaves currently in my nursery tank all within a couple of hours. I did wash them well under a running tap, rubbing them firmly with my fingers to remove anything I couldn't see. I didn't know I was supposed to leave them out to dry .... both baby fish are still alive and doing well. I'm going to water change them this weekend ... fresh water and fry being recommended and all that.
 
I am going to throw away the remaining leaves though now and begin again - only collecting from the ground from now on. I will be passing the oak tree again this weekend so I'll take a large bag and collect from the floor only and then I'll have to find somewhere to leave them out to dry for the now recommended 24 hours before re-bagging and storing. I am going to keep some in stock from now on. I don't think my main tank would look right with leaf litter, I think they'd spoil my aquascape but I am considering setting up a perminant fry tank now and that will have a leaf litter substrate (I've got a plan forming in my head) I just need to consider the best way to do this. My current nursery tank is just a small 18" clearseal tank. It doesn't have a proper tight fitting lid and it doesn't have a light. It's as basic as basic gets. If I'm setting up a proper perminant tank I want to be easy on the eye and not just a make-shift set up. I've actually realised I enjoy raising fry ... watching them hatch and grow makes me happy. Now that my palmeri's are breeding regularily I can see I'm always going to have fry surviving ... and then there's the cories.
 
Perhaps I should set up a thread for ideas and thoughts on setting up a nursery tank ... hmm

 

[ShinySideUp]

Yes, Byron, I think you are right; they had just come off the trees and may not have lost any 'live' toxins.
 
After yesterdays large water change I have lost no more overnight so am thinking that the panic is over.
 
There are oak leaves at the top of my garden so I'm thinking I might collect a few bags and keep them for a while as you suggest.

 

[Byron]

I collected and added the two oak leaves currently in my nursery tank all within a couple of hours. I did wash them well under a running tap, rubbing them firmly with my fingers to remove anything I couldn't see. I didn't know I was supposed to leave them out to dry .... both baby fish are still alive and doing well. I'm going to water change them this weekend ... fresh water and fry being recommended and all that.
 
I am going to throw away the remaining leaves though now and begin again - only collecting from the ground from now on. I will be passing the oak tree again this weekend so I'll take a large bag and collect from the floor only and then I'll have to find somewhere to leave them out to dry for the now recommended 24 hours before re-bagging and storing. I am going to keep some in stock from now on. I don't think my main tank would look right with leaf litter, I think they'd spoil my aquascape but I am considering setting up a perminant fry tank now and that will have a leaf litter substrate (I've got a plan forming in my head) I just need to consider the best way to do this. My current nursery tank is just a small 18" clearseal tank. It doesn't have a proper tight fitting lid and it doesn't have a light. It's as basic as basic gets. If I'm setting up a proper perminant tank I want to be easy on the eye and not just a make-shift set up. I've actually realised I enjoy raising fry ... watching them hatch and grow makes me happy. Now that my palmeri's are breeding regularily I can see I'm always going to have fry surviving ... and then there's the cories.
 
Perhaps I should set up a thread for ideas and thoughts on setting up a nursery tank ... hmm

 
Just to be clear, by "dry" I mean the leaf has completely dried out; it falls naturally from the tree and is on the ground.  I lay these out to completely dry.  If I intended to use any right after I pick them up off the ground, I would probably rinse them off and then add them.  Though I would still want to be confident that they were "dead dry," though perhaps we are making more of this than necessary...who knows.

 

[Akasha72]

did you read the bit about black oak Mr Shiny? If the leaves are pointy then they could be black oak and there-fore toxic. English oak is fine and their leaves are rounded on the edge

I'd say better safe than sorry Byron, especially given what Mr Shiny has just experienced

 

[Byron]

This is the first time I have heard that "black oak" was toxic.  Anyone have a source for this?  And according to photos, black oak leaves are the rounded ones...???
 
My oak tree is I believe a "red oak," in common parlance.  I've been using the leaves for several years and no fish have died in these tanks, so I assume it is safe.  Leaves look like those in the attached photo (this isn't my tree, but the leaves look like this).

 

[Akasha72]

I honestly can't remember where I heard, or read, that the black oak is toxic ... I wish I could so I could link the source for us all

there's this that might be useful http/www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/trees-woods-and-wildlife/british-trees/

I've not read this yet but I've just typed in to google "leaves safe to use in aquariums" and I'm copying and pasting anything useful
 
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/leaf-litter
 
there's this aswell
 
http/www.aqualifeleyland.co.uk/leaflitter.html

 

[PepperjacksMama]

Interesting, on this side of the pond, Black or Blackjack Oak have rounded tips. The trees do contain toxins. Sort of a defense mechanism. The saplings release it through the roots. Poisoning the soil and killing surrounding trees so as not to be shaded out.
However I do not know if the toxin is in the leaves as well.

 

[Akasha72]

okay I've been leaf collecting. I'll be collecting some more next week as the leaves are still dropping here in Yorkshire.
 
I got a few oak leaves and I've washed them well. Now they are on an old towel in my airing cupboard to dry out
 

 
 
I also got just three of these. I believe them to be beech? From research the beech tree is the last tree to shed it's leaves in Autumn and so there are very few leaves on the ground just yet. If I'm correct in my identification then I'll watch for more once the tree starts to really drop
 

 

[Far_King]

 
I also got just three of these. I believe them to be beech? From research the beech tree is the last tree to shed it's leaves in Autumn and so there are very few leaves on the ground just yet. If I'm correct in my identification then I'll watch for more once the tree starts to really drop
 

 
I think these may be Ash

 

[Akasha72]

okay, thank you. I shall bin them and stick to oak. I can identify oak so I'll stick with what I know. Better safe than sorry

 

[Far_King]

Looking at this, I may have white oak in the garden
 

Ash:

 

[NickAu]

Heres a great article on using leaf.
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/

 

[Akasha72]

thanks for the picture of the ash ... you are right. The leaves I picked up are indeed ash.
 
Thanks Nick, I think we've already had that link somewhere above but I'll have a look

looking at the oak leaves I collected and your picture Far king I've accurately identified them as English oak ... phew!