Unexplained sudden angelfish disease

[Jordan_Deus]

About two months ago I bought six angels, quarantined them for 3 weeks and added them to my 65 gallon. They seemed to be fine, but I noticed their feces was a bit reddish with clearer/white patches. Two weeks ago u treated the entire tank with API general cure in order to eliminate any internal parasites that may be in the water. Drained the tank to fifty gallons and added five packets and another fife 48 hours later. After another 48 hours I did a 75% weekly water change and added carbon for a week (didn't fertilize that week). It's been two weeks and just now my black marble angel went to the back of the tank during feeding time and started excreting a long completely white feces. I think it got about an inch long and the last part was rather thick. Then suddenly the angel shot up to the surface of the tank, and slowly sank down, laying on its side in the gravel. All the while breathing heavily.

I had noticed that this specific fish would spit out its food before eating it again on occasion but this stopped after treatment.

The angel then righted itself and swam into the valley with its mouth resting on the substrate.

As it seemed to me it couldn't regulate it's buoyancy, I decided to put it in a small overhead sump on one of my tanks to release the pressure on the swim bladder (only shrimp and crayfish in that tank so no risk of disease transfer).

Not sure what this could be other than an internal parasite. The scales aren't raised and there's no bloating (so no dropsy).

All other fish in the tank seem to be thriving, eating normally, the ancistrus are even breeding again.

I noticed that one of the other angels just passed some clearish white feces but before that regular feces. This specific angel has also doubled in size since I got it while the black marble was growing much slower.

Any recommendations as what to do?
And if the black marble passes what should I do about the number of fish in my tank? Angelfish need to be in a group but the pecking order in this tank has already been established and I wouldn't want to add another single angel...

 

[Jordan_Deus]

Might I add that the only recent change is that I added a DIY plastic top from greenhouse panels which I sprayed down thoroughly to remove any toxins.

Also just tested the ammonia nitrite and nitrate.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5 ppm

 

[Jordan_Deus]

Update: the Angel seems to be doing better in the sump, its swimming upright, not floating or sinking. Which I take as a good sign.

 

[Colin_T]

The stringy white poop is probably from intestinal worms like tapeworm and thread/ round worms.

API General Cure has Praziquantel and Metronidazole.
Praziquantel treats tapeworm and gill flukes, Metronidazole kills internal protozoa infections and some bacteria.

You use Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms.

If you are treating for intestinal worms, you treat once a week for 3-4 weeks to kill the adult worms and any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish.

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If the angelfish was acting strangely while being treated with Metronidazole, it was possibly overdosed.

Do lots of big water changes using dechlorinated water, and feed the fish a varied diet 3-5 times per day to help the fish recover.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

The stringy white poop is probably from intestinal worms like tapeworm and thread/ round worms.

API General Cure has Praziquantel and Metronidazole.
Praziquantel treats tapeworm and gill flukes, Metronidazole kills internal protozoa infections and some bacteria.

You use Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms.

If you are treating for intestinal worms, you treat once a week for 3-4 weeks to kill the adult worms and any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish.

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If the angelfish was acting strangely while being treated with Metronidazole, it was possibly overdosed.

Do lots of big water changes using dechlorinated water, and feed the fish a varied diet 3-5 times per day to help the fish recover.

The fish started acting strangely today, about two weeks after the treatment.

My issue is that this is a planted tank and in my country API is rarely sold anywhere. I got the API General Cure from Ebay, bought only one box. I could purchase a few more and start treatment again in about three weeks, and treat every week as you mentioned (that's how long it will take the items to arrive). On a daily basis I feed once a day, will up this up to 3-5 times a day. Will also return the fish to it's tank tomorrow if stays stable.

The alternative medication I have here at the local pet store is some sort of Sera Medication called Flagellol. Is this safe for plants? https://www.aquaristikshop.com/aquaristic/Sera-Flagellol/386930/

Can I afford to wait three weeks if I feed the fish more often?

I found a site that can ship me Metronidazole. Should I treat with that in the meantime?

Do I need to treat for all parasites, I.E. Praziquantel, Metronidazole, and Levamisole?

 

[Colin_T]

Don't use Metronidazole if you can help it.

Try to get Praziquantel on its own if you want to treat tapeworm, or Levamisole if you want to treat for thread/ round worms.

Intestinal worms don't normally kill fish quickly or at all, although if the fish is heavily infested, the fish might die from lack of blood. However, it takes months of being full of worms to get to this stage, so you can wait a few weeks before treating them.

Feeding the fish more often helps the fish build up fat reserves and replace lost blood so they last longer when infected with intestinal worms.

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Don't move the fish tomorrow. Just give it at least a week, preferably 2 weeks to recover.

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I have never used Flagellol and can't comment on it, other to say it does not treat intestinal worms. It does treat a couple of nasty internal diseases which I doubt apply to your fish.

I would try feeding the fish up first before adding more chemicals to the tank. If the fish stops eating then medicate it but if it eats, leave it alone.

 

[Fishmanic]

how can you tell what type of worm the fish has?

 

[Colin_T]

how can you tell what type of worm the fish has?

You generally don't know what worms are in the fish unless you see them sticking out. Camallanus/ Capillaria are thread/ round worms and can sometimes be seen sticking out of the fish's butt, but only if the fish is relaxed and it has lots of worms. They look like thin red or white hairs about 2mm long and stick out the fish's butt.

I just treat all new fish with Praziquantel and then Levamisole. The Praziquantel kills gill flukes and tapeworm, and the Levamisole does thread worms.

Deworming new fish is the only prophylactic treatment I do for fish and birds. And I do it while they are in quarantine so I don't have to treat the main display tanks.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

I actually moved the fish back to the main tank before you recommended not to just because I was worried it didn't have enough space in sump. Lucky for me it's been doing better since then, fed yesterday four times and will continue doing so. The fish all seem OK, swimming around normally, displaying regular behavior, except for the feces which are either reddish, or clear/white. I would prefer not to have to treat the tank but I assume there's no other option to permanently remove the worms.

I'll buy off of eBay some praziquantel and levamisole.

How exactly should I treat with these medications and are they plant safe?

Edit: is prazi-pro by hikari OK to use?

 

[Colin_T]

You can use Praziquantel to treat tapeworm and gill flukes. And Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms.

Remove carbon from filters before treatment otherwise it will absorb the medication and prevent it working.​

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration when using medications because they reduce the dissolved oxygen in the water.​

You treat the fish once a week for 3-4 weeks. The first treatment will kill any worms in the fish. The second and third treatments kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish's digestive tract.

You do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment.

Treat every fish tank in the house at the same time.

Do not use the 2 medications together. If you want to treat both medications in a short space of time, use Praziquantel on day one. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate on day 2 & 3. Treat the tank with Levamisole on day 4 and do a 75% water change and gravel clean on day 5, 6 & 7 and then start with Praziquantel again on day 8.

The water changes will remove most of the medication so you don't overdose the fish. The gravel cleaning will suck out any worms and eggs that have been expelled by the fish.

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Neither of these medications will affect filter bacteria or plants. And they are safe to use on all fish including baby fish. However, if you overdose, the fish will act nervously and become skittish and panic when you go near the tank. Young fish and small fish will be the first to act nervous. If this happens, do a water change.

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To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "How To Tips" at the top of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

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Hikari PraziPro should be fine for treating tapeworm but you will need something else for thread/ round worms.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

If I purchase Prazi off amazon it should arrive by the first of next month.

I'll treat with prazi first and then lavamisole. How much lavamisole per gallon or litre should I add to the tank?

Is this OK? Just pure levamisole off eBay? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/362624125868

 

[Jordan_Deus]

Also, would you need to treat a crayfish/shrimp tank? Is the medication safe for them? And are they susceptible to these parasites?

 

[Colin_T]

No idea on the dose rates for the medication, you need to check the ingredients. If you are using a powder, you can check the following link.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/powder-levamisole-dosage.451282/#post-3812107


Shrimp and crayfish are often carriers of worm eggs or larvae. I don't know if the medication is safe for them. Add a couple of cheap shrimp to the main tank and see if they survive the treatment..

 

[Jordan_Deus]

No idea on the dose rates for the medication, you need to check the ingredients. If you are using a powder, you can check the following link.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/powder-levamisole-dosage.451282/#post-3812107

What lavamisole do you recommend?

 

[Jordan_Deus]

Thank you so much for the help, you're a life saver. Possibly quite literally lol