Under gravel filter and Plants?

[Jace M]

I am starting my first planted tank and had a few questions. It is a tall 60 gallon aquarium so I wanted a few taller plants. I live in a town without a local fish store so I will be getting my plants from pet smart so I don't have many options. I really like the look of Amazon swords, but I saw that they need root tabs. I am a little weary of using tabs because I am new to planted tanks and worried about ammonia/nitrate spikes. I know many people use them and other ferts successfully, but being new to planted aquariums I would rather stay more low tech and avoid adding any organic materials and hoping my fish in the well stocked tank will provide enough for my low amount of plants without having to add more. but I figure in my plain aquarium gravel they won't get the nutrients in their roots they need from just the fish.

I was wondering, If i use an undergravel filter and plant my Swords in some gravel above it, would it suck enough organic material from the fish down to give the roots nutrients without extra ferts? i would only have 2 in the tank. I have seen a lot of people warning not to use heavy rooted plants with an under gravel filter because it can clog it up and cause nitrates/ bad bacteria, but If i gravel vac weekly won't I be able to suck up most of what gets tangled in the roots? I don't have to use the undergravel filter, I have 2 HOB filters as well I plan on using so the undergravel would be nice for extra (over) filtration, but is not necessary. I figured it could help get nutrients to plant roots though. After reading a lot on forums I have seen a lot of people say it's not a good idea, but many of the people who I have seen try it said it didn't cause them any problems. Anyone have any thoughts on this? has anyone tried out heavy root plants with UG filter? thanks and sorry if this is a dumb question

 

[Back in the fold]

Don’t worry at all about an undergravel filter with plants . I suppose somebody somewhere had a bad experience but there used to be an aquarium shop in my town that grew beautiful aquatic plants with undergravel filters . That shop ran all undergravel filters in all their aquarium’s . Personally I never use any kind of aquatic plants fertilizer . It’s the fishes job to do that and they do a fine job of it if you have things set up right . Also because all my aquariums are twenty gallons or less and I don’t want to chance an overdose and ruin things . I’ve got plants from PetsMart and they were fine , they just don’t have much of a selection . Try online plant places or our own @connorlindeman .

 

[Gamegurl564]

I use Buce plants. They have a nice selection

 

[connorlindeman]

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[fishorama]

We did UGFs with plants & I wouldn't recommend it. I don't use UGFs anymore. I took my last 1 out more than 20 years ago. There was an amazing amount of debris & roots after running several years (no swords).

Yes, the roots clog UGFs especially big swords. Their roots can take up a lot of floor space that makes gravel vacuuming difficult. & most the fish waste gets pulled under the plates where it turns into fine particles. That is why people call them nitrate factories. The tiny bits can get pulled up into the water column. Of course, water changes & vacuuming help. I used to "try" & clean under the plates every year or 2 but roots make that even harder.

Even smaller plants with less roots can eventually clog the plates. Every time you move them some roots stay behind, stuck into the slots.. Plants like java ferns & anubias that are attached to wood or rocks but can send roots into the substrate after a long while.

You could try planting in pots. Not the prettiest solution, big swords need bigger pots.

I would skip the UGF & go with the 2 HOB filters.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Swords get lots of roots which will clog under gravel filters. Since the UGF or a RUGF use the substrate as the media through which the water circulated, any ferts in thew substrate are going to get into the water. The more roots you have in the substrate the more the water flow will be restricted.

i had a UGF then a RUGF as my original filter along with an Emperor 400 H.O.B. on a 45 gal. It was over kill. I had live plants for a while with the RUGF which I ran on a reverse powerhead and not air. To remove the powerhead for maint. It often removes the uplift tube from the plate. When I ween yo look up from below as the tank was on a frame only stand, I discovered there were baby panda corys and swordtails under the plate. Thus ended the Book of UGF and so began the Book of HOB and the Book of Canister. It ended with the Book of Centralair.

 

[Magnum Man]

If you look at the newest Tank of the Month contest, you’ll see my entry… in it is a tall variety Anubis ( which has ryzome, which don’t need to be buried ) mine is stuffed into a resin hollow log, and is working exceptionally well…

Do you currently have under gravel, or are you considering adding it???

I had tanks 20-25 years ago, that I restarted a couple years ago… all originally had under gravel filters… I removed most of them, I currently “over filter” with hang on backs, and also do that in the couple tanks that retain the under gravel, and I think those are some of the most stable tanks, I’ve got going…

I also wanted to try live aquatic plants, ( which I never did before ) when I restarted my tanks, and I tried pots to begin with ( actually some squat wide mouth canning jars ) which disappeared into the substrate, but they had a tendency to collect the stuff I was trying to remove from the aquarium, and over time all of those have been removed… I’ve since graduated to ryzome plants my favorites are Anubis and Java ferns…

 

[Guest5431]

UG's pull the waste down thru the gravel where it ends up clogging up the space under the filter plate and overtime compacts and shuts off the flow thru the gravel itself. If you use open frame racks, you can actually look underneath and see all the funk you may be missing vacuuming as well as the mess plant roots make in areas as well as occasional baby fish trapped under the plate. I used to every so often have to stick the vacuum over one uplift tube and the garden hose flowing down the other to try and flush them. An option is to convert to reverse flow. Use your power heads to push water down thru the tubes. The goal is to get it to a point waste never settles into the gravel but just stays right at the top for easy removal by vacuuming or HOB type additions. I can't say it helps with the plants but it does open up the entire gravel bed to being functional as bio space and not getting clogged.

 

[fishorama]

I was sorry I never tried RUGF back in the day, but I still think it's too much bother for (almost?) any tank. I'm not sure having fish crap blown up is better than HOBs or canisters (I prefer 2 filters on most tanks). They both do a better job of sucking up detritus & are vastly easier to clean. Since I never tried RUGF I'm skeptical that roots don't grow into the plates. Maybe not as much as UGF but still enough to clog them. Beneficial bacteria only grow to the amount of fish & their byproducts (or from other sources), there no "overfiltration" that last long.

 

[Guest5431]

I'm not sure having fish crap blown up is better than HOBs or canisters

It's like everything else, there are some situations it's better for than others. If the funk isn't being pulled or just settling down into the gravel due to gravity, then you don't have to go do the work to vacuum it back out so that it doesn't clog the gravel bed, etc.. Less food wasted since the food stays where the fish can access it as well longer which can improve overall water quality thru smaller portion sizes of food. As for bother, how much bother is it to take your typical power head and reverse it's direction? Depending on the model it could be as little as 30 seconds or so. There used to be models sold that you simply flip a lever type switch to change the direction of the flow. Keep in mind the primary selling point for most cannisters is the capacity to house additional bio media, which using more or having it available down the road by using more of your gravel bed itself is a benefit. I don't bother for chemical type filtration medias and such so any filter choice is simply bio and/or mechanical and cannisters were always my least favorite choice. High price points, lots of extra time having to fiddle with them to service, always water spillage changing/servicing, etc... Your bio bed may be suitable now in any choice or with no filtration additions at all. The same tank two years from now after additional growth/reproduction may need more.

I have 6 tanks right now I'm set up for primarily sponge filter filtration I've yet to be happy with. I built the racks so there was no back space behind them so the 20 gallons have a large cheap sponge filter from Amazon. They're incredibly cheap so I assume Amazon sells a lot of them but they've been the least functional sponges I've ever seen. They give you a short piece of clear tubing 3/4" outside diameter. Large amount of air hooked to them but that tiny short tubing doesn't allow the air flow to remain incontact with the water long enough to generate any significant water flow thru the sponges which are huge. The tanks have remained cloudy since I set them up to varying degrees due to fish density/feeding. I was playing around Thursday and figured out the OD of the tubing fits exactly inside standard 3/4 inch pvc pipe which I had a lot of scrape around. I end up cutting a piece about a foot long for 8 of the tanks and sliding it over the pipe so it now extends to about an inch below the surface in the 20's. Now all of a sudden, the increased flow thru the sponge by forcing the air to stay in the longer, wider tube has most of the tanks looking the best they've looked yet and one in particular is suddenly almost clear that never stays clear. Pennies worth of improvement creating drastic results. I was contemplating reverse flow UG's for them over time since HOB isn't an option, cannisters aren't an option or even a desirable choice by my standards, internal HOBs would be costly and a lot of trouble to service while detracting from the view more than the sponges do.

Next week's 50% changes I may get some 90 degree elbows to add to the top of the tubes, drill some holes to let the airline thru into the tube and see if we can get some directional flow from the water now. I suspect the limited flow thru those sponges contributing to my tanks having taken the longest amount of time to cycle I've ever been thru. I'm still not ruling out RFUG down the road for some of those tanks since the stocking levels will at times be insane and any additional capacity combined with less waste from overfeeding to compensate for that lost in the gravel may be desirable.

 

[GaryE]

It's funny. I'm using UGFs again, after 30 years or so, tied into my central air system. I don't use the filter plate type, but the piping ones (a DIY type popular in the 1980s - there was one in an second hand tank I bought and it worked very well until I switched to HOBs). I grew plants in it no problem, and now, I do the same.
Why did I switch back then?
Everyone told me the new tech was better. In retrospect, it was equal. Both systems worked.
Like any tool, it has to be used in the right context. They may not be the best for new aquarists, because they work best in lightly stocked tanks. Enormous amounts of mulm go with overstocking and overfeeding, or with keeping large, waste producing herbivores like goldfish or many catfish.
I had very good Crypt wendtii growth in the old tanks, and am trying them again. I never bothered with Amazon swords back then, and the one small one I just got is in a tank with a canister and 2 HOBs now.
I'll avoid plants with huge root systems in the 4 tanks I have UG in. One of the tanks has a powerhead, but I'm moving the current loving fish out today actually, and will switch it back to an air driven system.

If I were a new aquarist, I would probably go with a HOB. They are easier to use while you get things right, get past overfeeding (we all do it at first) and experiment with what plants you like. I see UGs as a great tool for specific uses. My Bush Fish young, tiny barbs, and pencil fish are great with them. Digging fish won't get into those tanks, and I won't use them with sand lovers like Corys.

All systems have drawbacks. HOBs are awful with fish that are jumpers. Canisters are bad for people who lose track of time and forget to clean them, or who overclean them regularly. Sponge filters have to be hidden away, and internal filters take up space and often have limited bio-filter capacity. UGs are rough if you have huge roots and heavy waste production. The best option is 2 filters anyway.

 

[Guest5431]

The best option is 2 filters anyway.

The best option can be said to be no filters at all in many cases. A tank that's balanced between plants, fish and water change schedule/% doesn't even have to have additional filtration. Once we go beyond those numbers, we force filtration into our lives and as the current hurricane season is already demonstrating here in the states, mother nature can take our options away in a hurry and will for a variety of reasons. That's my biggest fear right now. Store stocking levels may become unmanageable during the Winter if we get an outage and we've had them las multiple days once just in the last 5 years. Spring Summer and Fall I should still have water since the towns water tower is gravity fed so I'll be able to do as many water changes as needed.

 

[GaryE]

The best option can be said to be no filters at all in many cases. A tank that's balanced between plants, fish and water change schedule/% doesn't even have to have additional filtration. Once we go beyond those numbers, we force filtration into our lives and as the current hurricane season is already demonstrating here in the states, mother nature can take our options away in a hurry and will for a variety of reasons. That's my biggest fear right now. Store stocking levels may become unmanageable during the Winter if we get an outage and we've had them las multiple days once just in the last 5 years. Spring Summer and Fall I should still have water since the towns water tower is gravity fed so I'll be able to do as many water changes as needed.

I'll respectfully say you're wrong. That's one of the old recurring myths of the aquarium world - a classic idea that returns because we want to hear it. It's getting a hard sell right now online, but so are all myths.
The balanced aquarium, between plants , fish and water changes is never balanced. If you can manage one 2 inch fish per 20 gallons of water or so, you are beginning to emulate nature and maybe close in on the ideal. One per 50 gallons would be smarter.
That you could balance. But most 2 inch fish are shoalers, so the behavior side says you can't ethically or practically do that.
I grew up in the balanced aquarium era, when it was unquestioned. Fish were stunted, fungus medications were major sellers and we thought tetras were ancient if they lived to 3. We worked really hard to balance tanks, and when we started with water changes and better filters, a world opened up.
You are running a store. If you can, look back at when the explosion of new species hit the hobby. Many of our bread and butter species were considered too difficult to keep alive in unfiltered and topped up tanks. Once filter technology kicked in and we caught on to the cycle, and water changing, previously impossible to keep species became easy. All we had to do was ditch the balanced aquarium idea, to a technically supported occasional short term balance idea.
Without extreme low population large tank set ups, the balance aquarium is unachievable.
In a store, with tank size and the numbers you need if you get a good customer base?
I've only waded through tropical streams in 4 countries and 2 continents. Every stream that had desirable little fish in it had a solid current, at a higher flow level than we can create in a standard tank without turbulence caused by the walls. I'd run a filter with no media in it over a stagnant swamp tank, unless I kept stagnant swamp species.
I sometimes wonder if a well established, filtered tank with a lot of plants is as dependent on our filter media as we think, but I do know it depends on water movement and flow moving oxygen.


I get the hurricane outage worry. If I get a Nor'easter where I am, or a hurricane, I can lose more than filtration. I can lose heat. For days. In Canada, that's deadly for tanks. I lost 40 tanks of rarities in 1998, to an ice storm and 8 days of no power. Natural disasters are a worry everywhere. But I can't hope away the need for a warmth for aquariums with tropical fish in them. Choosing to go with no filtration, without radically reducing fish populations would be on par with turning off the heat because it's too expensive, and could cut out.

 

[Guest5431]

I ran 100+ aquariums for 6 months with no power so while heat is always a concern, there are ways to make heat that don't require electricity. Filtration is a crutch to allow for overstocking that mother nature can take away any time she chooses and does frequently. My floor tubs are a prime example. Plants and a light. Guppies reproducing. First batch of babies is getting close to removal. Daily water changes. Harvesting plants for use elsewhere. I did eventually add the tiniest sponge filters I have just to have some surface movement to break up the surface deposits. If I could get them into the front window area I wouldn't even need the light. I used to keep a pond indoors in the old store that got direct light all year round. I used to get the most gorgeous platies out of there and tremendous plant growth of many types.

Here's a picture of one of the 20's with the 3/4 pvc pipe slid over the short tube that came with the sponges extending the reach to the surface and drastically improving the flow thru the sponge. I imagine I could spray the PVC with some Krylon or something to change the color if I wanted to and I might add a corner fitting to the top to direct the flow across the surface.

40+ aquariums going right now while I only own 1 heater and it's not plugged in anywhere. There are work arounds for most problems.

 

[Guest5431]

Just had a thought. As always we already know that people have been keeping pet fish for over 1,000 years to get us where we are now without some of the new fangled gadgets of the last 50 years. I was just reflecting on that and remembered back in the 70's, reading my first major novel Coral Island by R. M. Ballantyne. Pertinent to this conversation, even when the book was written around 1850 they already knew about water changes. There's a part where they build a tidal pool to keep what they find in the ocean in and discover that the stuff actually lives when they do water changes instead of just topping off. A really great adventure book for the young-uns if you have a chance to share it with some. The interesting part to me was that was salt water. I kept a burgundy and gold clown that way for several months, no filters, just water changes.