Training your puffer to puff

[Opcn]

A1 Good bit as you ill recall I mentioned before that the fish Might asosiate food with danger. I am not planning on doing this I was just thinking about wether or not it could be done. I don't think I could bring myself to cause undo stress to an animal just for my enjoyment.

Puffing is a feature of owning a puffer. Almost all puffers ocassionally puff for some reason or another especially those who are kept with larger fish. Granted the typical Cake to iceing ration is Far to low to be equated to the puffer to puffing ratio that a good aquarist would experience but that doesn't really change the gist of it. Cake is Great with out iceing but Iceing on its own is not good enought a reason to smash around a perfectly good piece of cake.

And as far as the car analogy goes I think a more accurate one would be "whats the point of haveing your 10 year old son in the car if you cant show him a good time my driveing in a demolition derby"

Edit: some spelling not all I'm a bad speller you see

 

[Clare]

Some things posted on this site horrify me!! Fish are living creatures, how can people think of them as being there for their own entertainment?!!
We have a Tetradon Palembangensis who has puffed up twice in the time we have had her. Not only was it stressful for her but it was the worst thing i have ever experienced while keeping fish.
She was huge and looked like she was going to burst. We think she did it as a request for food, we didn`t train her and we make sure that, unlike the previous times, we are never late with her daily feed.

In the early post you put that you would like to see the fish puff up and that you don`t really see the point in having a puffer if it doesn`t puff up, like you wouldn`t have a sports car and not drive it fast. Your attitude soon changed when you heard what the serious responsible fish keeperes had to say. You bring shame to the hobby, in my opinion.
Clare

 

[Opcn]

Who is this "you" you speak of clare I never suggested that they were like sports cars I simply wondered aloud about conditioning puffers to puff for food. I dont think that your puffer puffed for food however because that is not a natural response and I estimate that it would take several months to train that response more likely your puffer tried to eat something that was not food or simply was startled.

I suggest that you read the names next to the comments before writeing scatheing replies to people who dont exist but are rather a compilation of two seperate people who do not agree.


Edit: some spelling not all I'm a bad speller you see

 

[Opcn]

I just read carefully over my posts three times and there is no way You could have gotten that I plan on doing this or that I changed my mind after "responsable fish keepers" (of coarse insinuateing that I am not a responsable fish keeper) spoke up. I am quite insulted by your vitupreative nature of your comments.

The fact of the matter is tha many puffers are abused by People who share CSR's Feelings about puffers but are irresponsible enought to buy them (SCR wont buy one because if it doesn't puff he doesn't want to use up his prescious little tank space) If you could train a puffer to behave this way with out causeing a great deal of stress you would save the lives of many puffers and great deals of stress for them.

Many people keep fish to see how they react to there surroundings (otherwise I would just keep some plastic toys in my tank) and puffing is a very interesting behavior while it may be wrong to cause the fish excess stress in order to produce illicit this type of behavior I am afraid that marvleing at this very ingeniouse and strange adaptation will never be wrong in my eyes. Puffers are quite Capable of puffing W/O causeimng themselves harm and have been doing it for millions of years I dont see the point of wasteing the time you could spend marvleing at the wonderous behavior of your fishwith worrying wether it is going to hurt itself (keep in mind that when your fish puffs it is not only designed to get that big but also to be bitten while that size and not pop) but Once more I digress

 

[LadyMinion]

Puffing is a feature f owning a puffer

Sorry, but I see a feature as something that is beneficial to the owner/user. While it is beneficial to the puffer as a form of defence, it is not of any benefit to the aquarist.

I suggest that you read the names nextto the comments before writeing scatheing replies to people who dont exist but are rather a compilation of teoseperate people who do not agree

I agree that it was not you who made all those comments, but you have to admit that you have started a rather controversial topic and as such, are to a degree responsible for eliciting those sort of responses.

many puffers are abused by People who share CSR's Feelings

Then I hope we can educate such people and not encourage speculation of methods of cruelty, as in this topic.

Many people keep fish to see how they react to there surroundings

I don't. I enjoy watching them and providing as natural a habitat as can possibly be achieved outside of their native environment. I take great pleasure in seeing them happy, not teaching them "tricks" or trained responses.

Puffers are quite Capable of puffing W/O causeimng themselves harm

I agree, but this does not mean they should be trained to do it at our command. A puffer chooses when he/she wishes to puff, and for good reason.

 

[LadyMinion]

We have a Tetradon Palembangensis who has puffed up twice in the time we have had her.

I have two Palambangensis and they are wonderful puffers! Please do not worry about her puffing - as long as she isn't out of the water when she does it she will be fine. If she does it quite frequently, check to make sure nothing is upsetting her.

It would be great to see some pics. Also, what does she like to eat and how big is she?

 

[Opcn]

Okay a trick from my political debates with Ken

numbers just count allong Ladies points and mabey she could edit in some numbers

1. A feature is not necessarily a good thing However I enjoy seeng my fish use there natural abilities and puffing is certainly a natural ability of a puffer a rare treat

2. I am in no way responsable for any responses not under my controll I never changed my oppinion either I simply clairified my POV because I thought you had misunderstood me thinking I placed a higher enfacis on puffing than the fish which I did not (its not even important enougth for me to get a fish that puffs often)

3. I meant not to speculte in meathods of cruelty but rather to speculate in makeing the cruelty that will be ever present in humans less detramental to the fish. I myself would never own a trained fish but there are people out there who buy puffers and are knowingly cruel to them (even people who have been educated to the extent that they realise that it causes great distress to a fish to be repeatedly put in a situation where puffing will result via the traditional means) It would be excelent for the puffers if there were some available who gave the response wanted but did not sufer from the stress caused by the usual means for illiciting puffing would it not?

4. When you are watching them move about there tank and explore you are watching them react to there surrondings, when you add a friend for them to play with you are watching them react to there surroundings when you see them grow or color up you are seeing them react to there surroundings. If all you cared about was recreating the habitiat you would probably stop keeping live fish and just set up the tank and sink a taxadermied fish to the bottom because that is the only fish that you dont see reacting to its surroundings and it would certainly be easyer to preserve the naturalistic habitat w/o any live fish to deal with wouldn't it?

5. Are you saying a untrained puffer in the hands of a puffing fanatic would be better off than one that had had its behaviors altered throught conditioning therapy to make puffing a less stressfull experience?

I never said I would train a puffer I never even suggested that I would others seem to think that they have the right to make up my mind for me I just thought that the idea should be explored so as to provide a means to prevent a puffer from undergoing years of suffering and an eventual stress death If no controversial questions are asked no progress can be made. The idea of shots used to be controversial but look at all the good they have done the people who live with autism because of vacines are no where near as great in numbers as the people who died from deseases that once ran unchecked or those who suffered permanent disability. If there were no controversy there might as well be only one person thinking in the world and thats not good is it. Progress leads to an end to suffering And I am not contemplateing torture I'm contemplateing delayed gratification as a means to help an unknow puffer survive hapily ina situation that would normally lead to perpetual misery and early death for it.

 

[Clare]

Firstly i would like to respond to opcn. You refer to your fish puffing up as a great party piece`. You take it upon yourself to tell me the reason for my fish puffing up, you know nothing about them. Is it merely a coincidence that she puffed up on the 2 occasions we were late with her food? I suggest you learn how to type properly as it is very difficult to read your replies.
I have a 2ft Mbu puffer, a small lineatus, 2 palembangensis and 2 figure eights so i am reasonably experienced with these fish.

As for Ladyminions reply. Thankyou!! It is great to hear from someone else who keeps these fish, not only as use for party tricks!! We were sold 2 together which had to be seperated. Mildred is huge, 7" long but very round and a greenish colour. Clarence is around 5" but much thinner, and a reddish brown. Mildred origionally wouldn`t eat and will now only take food from a feeding stick. She enjoys earthworms, cockles, mussels ,prawns and whelk. Clarence will eat the odd worm and mainly cockles.
From what i know about puffing up, it is a very last defence and they can end up using so much energy they can die. However, your have obviously done this too, like ours.
In an unnatural environment unfortunatley fish sometimes do unnatural acts however much we recreate their surroundings.

 

[Clare]

Just wanted to add, no matter how much you train a puffer to puff up, it is still soooo stressful to it, physically it could die! No excuses, and as for conditioning fish, what gives you the right to start changing nature? I know we obviously strongly disagree but i think you should research puffers more. My Mbu has never puffed up, should i be training him to, just in case?!
And by the way, puffing up in nature is usually a last gasp mechanism to avoid being eaten or bitten! Pufferfish certainetly would not survive a bite even when inflated from a predator.

 

[a1wonder]

Opcn, I've very happy to see that you will not be training your fish, how I read your earlier post sounded as if you'd be doing something I seriously find almost appalling and as barbaric as Russian dancing bears (training an animal under the false pretences that it would natural develop an association) so I hope you can understand my pervious argument was not meant to incite anger but to simply inform you that the form of conditioning you were previously referring to would not work such as you had posted.


Quoted from Open
“3. I meant not to speculte in meathods of cruelty but rather to speculate in makeing the cruelty that will be ever present in humans less detramental to the fish. I myself would never own a trained fish but there are people out there who buy puffers and are knowingly cruel to them (even people who have been educated to the extent that they realise that it causes great distress to a fish to be repeatedly put in a situation where puffing will result via the traditional means) It would be excelent for the puffers if there were some available who gave the response wanted but did not sufer from the stress caused by the usual means for illiciting puffing would it not?
5. Are you saying a untrained puffer in the hands of a puffing fanatic would be better off than one that had had its behaviors altered throught conditioning therapy to make puffing a less stressfull experience?”

Altered thought conditioning therapy?? It is beyond science at this moment to have such conditional therapy. Since you seem not to understand the full theory behind this statement I ask you to reference from using it.

Unless it is the fish natural quake to puff when it wants food, it will not puff, you can not train it to puff.

 

[LadyMinion]

Argghh... well, we shall just have to agree to disagree. In response to your points.

1) I tend to think of features as positive things, but then I used to work in sales so I guess that's why. I just don't want people to recommend puffers as they "feature" the ability to puff up.

2) I did not say you were responsible for what others have written, I said that because you began such a controversial topic you would be opening the door for people to write such things. You may have intended this to be a positive debate, but there will always be people who use such a situation to argue the negative aspects.

3) You may not have meant to speculate on methods of cruelty but, again, this opens the door for others to do so. Also, it is very easy for a person's views to be misinterpreted - for example, if I started a thread asking if people thought it would be OK to threaten to kill someone as long as you apologised and gave them a reward afterwards, people would assume that I agree with it myself.

4) I enjoy keeping an equilibrium between the fish and it's environment. It wouldn't be much of a challenge with a taxidermied fish, would it. Yes, I do like to watch them go about their business too, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that you want to see them react to something you do directly, in the case of puffers, puff.

5) I would hope that no puffer has to come under the "care" of a puffing fanatic. Anyone who buys a puffer just to see it inflate should not be allowed to own one. Those who do not know puffers only puff when stressed should be educated as such, preferably before they buy the fish.

 

[LadyMinion]

Thankyou!! It is great to hear from someone else who keeps these fish, not only as use for party tricks!! We were sold 2 together which had to be seperated. Mildred is huge, 7" long but very round and a greenish colour. Clarence is around 5" but much thinner, and a reddish brown. Mildred origionally wouldn`t eat and will now only take food from a feeding stick. She enjoys earthworms, cockles, mussels ,prawns and whelk. Clarence will eat the odd worm and mainly cockles.
From what i know about puffing up, it is a very last defence and they can end up using so much energy they can die. However, your have obviously done this too, like ours.
In an unnatural environment unfortunatley fish sometimes do unnatural acts however much we recreate their surroundings.

Your puffers sound lovely.. Mildred is almost fully grown I see. Our two are called Smaug and Smeagle - Smaug is about 2.5 inches and Smeagle about 3. Smaug has darker colouring (he is more brown) and Smeagle is paler but with beautiful black spots surrounded by green rings around her belly.

They both seem to like each other and will often sit in the same corner together. They like meaty foods and, as we accidentally found out one day, rummynose tetras. Last night, one of them devoured an enormous snail we'd popped in for them. The shell was intact, but the snail was gone

Because it is a stressful event, puffing on a regular basis can affect lifespan. I know there is one member on here whos puffer inflates every morning! But once in a while should be fine.

 

[Clare]

Thanks for your reaponse. One thing i want to point out is that opinion differs from the experts on this puffer (Palembangensis). Yours obviously get on fine which is really nice, mine, however nearly killed eachother! The only reason mine didn`t was that they were in a large tank. Death would of been through constant harrasment from one. They were fine for 3/4 days but then things got bad.
Also, being an ambush predator, they can give the impression that they will get on with others in the tank for a short while,unfortunately it would only ever be a matter of time before it was eaten.

You obviously know all this but if anyone else reads this then i want them to be warned.
Mine are in tanks near eachother for stimulation but no way could they go together. This is a shame in a way.
What do yours eat and do you have any other information on these? What other fish do you have? Sounds like you like the interesting ones like us!!!
Did you see my list of fish to Sirminion?

 

[Unphased]

Clare

They are just fish. You gripeing at him about that with the puffer, why dont you gripe at the lil girl in finding nemo about shaking the bags... its the same thing. they are pets but there just fish... dont get me wrong i "love" all my fish and treat them good but if thats what he wants to do dont harrass him for it.

 

[Nix]

Don't make your puffers puff, when they fill with water often water is perminatly trapped inside and he gets like a swim bladder type deal.