Too Much Too Quick

[alchemist]

Thanks for the welcome to the forum - nice to find a friendly group of people online!

Well - I have made a few classic beginner mistakes. I think I will start posting 'fishforums.net' stickers near the tanks in the store

I have a 35L tank, gravel, one real plant and some plastic plants.
I did a 'mini' fishless cycle over 3 weeks, but not using pure ammonia - and not as scientific as I am seeing on here.
Anyway - first batch of fish went in ok (8 copper harlequins) and are very happy.
Ammonia, nitrite and nitrates were as expected but using tablet test kit so accuracy not brilliant - but using my nose / eyes and watching the fish everything looked good.

2 weeks later got my second batch of fish (5 male guppies) and my ammonia spiked next day- so obviously did too much too soon. Daily water changes have kept things under control. I got a proper test kit and have been closely monitoring things. I may need to ask for help if things go downhill... Water is clear at the moment and fish are happy (harlequins are still jumping over the current from the water filter output - love that!)

My question is about some 'advice' from the store. He told me that because my filter bio capability was 'borderline' the ammonia spike could have killed the good bacteria in the filter? he was basically saying that I might be at square one. Is this possible?

Looking inside the filter there is plenty of brown 'gunk' built up around the foam media and I have resisted cleaning it at all based on what I have read here. Seems to me that I should leave the filter alone for at least 3 months? (Why don't they tell you that?)

Thanks for your advice

 

[OldMan47]

It is unlikely that you have lost what little had developed on your filter. I assume he had some nostrum to sell that would help you overcome the dead filter. The 3 months is a bit extreme for finishing a cycle but I have seen a few postings that it ended up taking that long. You clean your filter media by swishing it around in used tank water whenever it starts to have flow problems. That could be every 2 weeks or every 6 months. It is what it is. You have stocked the tank quite heavily already so no more fish until you get everything stable. The rasboras would be a typical full load for your tank so you have gone over a bit. If you lose a few fish, which is entirely possible right now, do not replace them. There is a link in my signature that will take you to a posting by MissWiggle on how to do a fish-in cycle. I would suggest giving it a good read through once or twice and then if you still have questions we will be here to help.

 

[alchemist]

Thanks - I am reading as much as I can on the forum - its all great information - just wish I had come here before buying my fish.

What are peoples opinions on products like ammo -lock? I understand that it can get very difficult to know if you have toxic or non-toxic ammonia as the test results are the same. I assume you just need to regularly use the product until your cycle is complete?
Does ammo-lock itself effect the fish? I read on another forum that people regularly use ammo-lock on their tap water to remove chloramines which suggests not?

My main question on ammo-lock is: is it a good way to fish in cycle and look after the fish? (my main concern)

I'm not looking for a replacement for water changes - just wondering if this is 'safer' in conjunction with water changes in case I get another spike?

 

[OldMan47]

I have read that the ammo lock won't interrupt a cycle but I have never used it. Lots of water changes is all it will take unless you have very sensitive fish, you don't. Keeping ammonia and nitrites under 0.25 ppm will allow most fish to survive. That may require frequent large water changes with your stocking level. About a week after the fish started making enough ammonia to worry about, any time now, it will seem almost impossible to keep the nitrites down. At that point you will probably be doing at least a 50% daily change just to keep up.

 

[LauraFrog]

Ammo-lock is a last resort. It will work if, say, you oversleep and you get up and test the water and it's over .25 and you don't have time to change it and you won't get home till that afternoon.... etc etc. That's the sort of situation when you dose with ammo-lock. But when trying to cycle a tank it cannot be used as a substite for water changes. Ammo-lock contains a chemical which binds with the ammonia and converting it into a non toxic form. However this form cannot be used by the filter, so if you use ammo lock too frequently the tank will not cycle as there will be nothing for the bacteria to feed on. It is okay for an occasional use - say two or three times a week in a pinch - but if you use it to keep the ammonia at zero, you will find that as soon as you stop using it the ammonia will go straight up again because the tank isn't cycled.

The other ammonia remover you might see is zeolite. That's even worse. It's like rock, usually pale cream in colour and crumbled up, that you're supposed to put in your filter. It absorbs ALL the ammonia so the filter never cycles then it becomes saturated and starts releasing ammonia back into the water. Don't use it. If you have to get rid of the ammonia really fast and you can't do a water change, use ammo lock.

 

[rhostog]

The Ammo Lock you get in the UK is supposed to lock up the ammonia in a non-toxic form which is still available to the filter bacteria. Apparently there is another product with the same name available in the US (and possibly elsewhere) which works as LauraFrog describes, removing the ammonia so that it isn't available to the bacteria and therefore stalling your cycle.

So I think you're OK using the UK Ammo Lock but not the US version - check what it says on the bottle - the OK version will specifically say that the ammonia remains available to the filter bacteria.

(I would link to a recent thread discussing the two products but the Search function isn't working for me at the moment and I can't track it down.)

Good luck - this is the hardest part, but if you can get through this, it gets a lot easier!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yes, as above there is very helpfully two different products i think one is called ammo lock and the other ammo-lock or something stupid like that so it's easy to get confused between the two.

if it's a liquid then it's fine to use, it converts ammonia to ammonium which is safe (or at least very low in toxicity to fish) and can be used by the filter bacteria. if it's white granules/crystals then it's not safe to use, it sucks up the ammonia and stalls your cycle.

 

[LauraFrog]

MW, what about that thread in the scientific forum? Ammonia/ammonium is reversible, it's just the matter of one hydrogen ion. It can be removed by the filter but it can also turn back into ammonia. The risk of this happening is worse in a high temp and high pH, as in more of the ammonium turns back into ammonia.

Who makes the 'safe' ammonia remover? The one I have is API and as far as I know, it's the cycle-staller I have.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

MW, what about that thread in the scientific forum? Ammonia/ammonium is reversible, it's just the matter of one hydrogen ion. It can be removed by the filter but it can also turn back into ammonia. The risk of this happening is worse in a high temp and high pH, as in more of the ammonium turns back into ammonia.

Who makes the 'safe' ammonia remover? The one I have is API and as far as I know, it's the cycle-staller I have.

have to confess i haven't yet had the chance to catch up with the thread over in the scientific forum just yet, it's got a bit technical and i'm not very well, everytime i try to read it my brain starts dribbling out of my ear.

as far as i knew the api one was the 'safe' one to use, i've heard of plenty of people using it with no problems.... all anecdotal evidence of course but that's the best of my knowledge/experience.

obviously interesting for us all to debate and understand this, but for the OP I think this is fairly conclusive. if there is any evidence or confusion over weather the product is safe to use, then don't use it. excess ammonia can be removed much more safely via daily water changes during the cycling period so just stick to that.

 

[petertr]

Thanks - I am reading as much as I can on the forum - its all great information - just wish I had come here before buying my fish.

What are peoples opinions on products like ammo -lock? I understand that it can get very difficult to know if you have toxic or non-toxic ammonia as the test results are the same. I assume you just need to regularly use the product until your cycle is complete?
Does ammo-lock itself effect the fish? I read on another forum that people regularly use ammo-lock on their tap water to remove chloramines which suggests not?

My main question on ammo-lock is: is it a good way to fish in cycle and look after the fish? (my main concern)

I'm not looking for a replacement for water changes - just wondering if this is 'safer' in conjunction with water changes in case I get another spike?

Hi.

When I first started to keep fish, I was given a bottle of Ammo-Lock to use as a Dechlor. Its works perfectly well as a dechlor, but has the added benefit of locking up some of the ammonia in your tank.


In your situation (under-capacity bacteria colony in a fish-in cycle) I would say it is a very good idea to use it. BUT don't fall into the trap of using it instead of regular water changes as per a fish-in cycle.

The Ammo-Lock is your insurance policy - Some of the extra ammonia will be dealt with - a lot still won't.

 

[alchemist]

Thank you for the advice everyone.

I am in two minds about using the ammo-lock - going to keep a close eye on things over the next two days and keep up the daily water changes until I am confident with what the tests are actually showing me.
I was also told that because the PH of the tap water is high in my area - ammo-lock is a good idea for that as well?

I also have a question about test sampling frequency (my inner nerd coming out here) ---- might have to do a science experiment

How rapidly does ammonia/ nitrite move up and down during a day ? E.G. - If I am always testing at a time when ammonia has just been produced by the fish - I would see a reading at that point in time?
Presumably there is a point in time when ammonia is always going to be present before the filter has a chance to touch it and convert it?

I guess I am asking if there is an 'optimum' time to test the water - e.g. 3 hours after feeding - to ensure that the reading is meaningful?
Or am I talking nonsense and it doesn't work that way ?

I am wondering about when people say ammonia should be 0 - how can it always be 0 if the fish are always producing it? or is the amount produced always 'trace' and it only becomes meaningful after a few days build up with no filter action?

 

[backtotropical]

I just found this on API's website

Ammo Lock

Ingredients
alphatic amine salts, proprietary
sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate

Maybe one of our science bods can confirm what effect those ingredients will have on ammonia? I know that sodium thiosulfate is the common active ingredient in dechlorinators, but i'm not sure what effect, if any, it has on ammonia, and i'm not sure what the 'pentahydrate' is?

API do seem to claim it can be used by the filter

Locks up ammonia in a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the tank's natural biological filter.

I'm not sure how conclusive we can take that to be?

It was always my understanding that the filter can still use the ammonia after it has been treated with Ammo Lock, but I may be wrong..................

API also make other ammonia removers which appear to lock it so it can't be used by the filter, much like zeolite

Ammo Chips (ammonia remover)

Ammo Carb (mixture of ammo chips and activated carbon)

Hope this helps

BTT

 

[OldMan47]

The fish do not produce ammonia in spikes. It is a product of their metabolic processes so it is produced at a fairly steady rate. The time when ammonia will be at its highest is right before you do the needed water change. That will be true before and after the ammonia converting bacteria start working. It is also the time when you can expect nitrites to be at their highest.

 

[petertr]

Ammo-Lock is perfectly save to use in place of other Dechlors - I used it for 3 years.


Just don't use it instead of water changes. Its just a saftey net between water changes that is useful for people running a fish-in cycle

 

[alchemist]

I've started testing just before and then an hour after my water change as that seems to give me the most relevant results. I'm using a nutrafin mini master test kit.

The ammonia result has dropped right down now and is staying down, but there is some ammonia present both before and after the waterchanges. It's not completely clear but I do see a difference thanks to the waterchange. I did a test of my tap water so I could see the difference - the tap water is completely clear after testing - either from the tap or after de-chlor.

Fish-in
temp 27 'c
PH is 7-8
ammonia >0 <0.3
toxic ammonia 0.04 based on the lookup chart with the kit.
nitrite is >0 <0.3
(its turning pink - but not that pink if that makes sense)

nitrate >30 <50

The nitrate test is weird - the water changes seem to make no difference - in fact on one occasion I'm convinced that the nitrates were 'higher' after the waterchange - is that normal???

The water changes are definitely helping with the ammonia and nitrite. I did a second waterchange tonight and the nitrite barely registered - so I will keep up the double water changes until the nitrite is showing as 0.