To our experts - answers to questions you've asked me before. You know who you are :)

[Jan Cavalieri]

I found my GH/KH kit - it had fallen behind an aquarium. So I squeezed back there and pulled it out.

First of all my tank stats as of today:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate 0 (one tank was at a 5)
PH 6.77 (after adding a nasty chemical called "Neutral Regulator" On one of the three tanks PH tested a perfect 7 like it was supposed to. Not sure what's up with that - they should all test 7.

KH: 4 drops dkh (50-100 ppm) 71.6 ppm exactly
GH: 10 drops dkh (100-200 ppm) 179 ppm exactly

With a KH of 4 my water appears OK for most tropical fish. The website I buy from says that too, so I can pretty much purchase any freshwater tropical fish I want to and that's what I've been doing. BUT then you guys come along and say - no look at the GH of 10 which the reference suggests is only good for marine fish and invertebrates and you give me 2 or 3 fish to choose from including the despicable GUPPY???.

So are the two companies I purchase from that use KH values to guide you instead of GH - perhaps for no other reason than to sell a broader species of fish? Who do I listen to? You or them (they obviously have an incentive to sell more fish).

Why is there such a difference? You see why I get hung up with PH - because that's the only factor that I needed to control - my "natural" PH of about 9 (highest my scale goes) is too high for all the fish - so I add the Neutral Regulator or PHdown to get each bucket of water down to a reasonable PH. So if it's s 6.5 today chances are it will be close to that when I do my water change next week and so I want to make sure each bucket is as close to that PH as possible so there is no shock like there would be if I hit it with a bucketful of water with a 9 PH - it just can't be allowed to happen. I still think this is the right way to handle this situation or I'll just give up fishkeeping. I'm out of options that will please everybody AND keep my fish that I have alive - forget what I buy in the future. I have about 50 fish I need to deal with TODAY.

Finally - have you heard of a way to soften water called "Pillow softener" - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEY1TL4/?tag=ff0d01-20 Sounds like you use it for a couple of day or maybe between water changes and then put it in a salt solution and regenerate it and use it for another two days. Doesn't that sound fun? Anyway - would be interested in your opinions - I was looking for something other than driftwood tannins and peat (both dirty) to soften my water. Plus for the life of me I can't find the right kind of peat according to different websites that specify different types. I have peat for my plants but it probably has additives. I just want to soften my water but on the other hand, it sounds like if I make my water softer then I risk making my PH to acidic if I combine that with the Neutral Regulator I'm using now. I also DO NOT want brown water. I am a vain person and want both a pretty and healthy aquarium.

In all the Chemistry classes I took - including Biochem I always struggled with PH and related topics -but I still got straight A's just by wrote memorization. I never actually "got it". So here I am again, almost 40 yrs later - still struggling with it LOL.

Jan, still the struggling student.

 

[Munroco]

A PH of 9 is a killer. I think I'd be tempted to get an RO system.

 

[Colin_T]

A GH of 179ppm is at the very bottom end for livebearers and they would do better with a GH of 200+.

Your GH is at the top end for fishes like tetras, barbs, rasboras, Corydoras, gouramis, etc. But they would be ok in it. Basically you have water that is borderline between soft and medium hardness.

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KH is the amount of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. These are used to stabilise the pH and stop it dropping. The higher the KH, the less chance of the pH dropping. In water with 0 KH, the pH can literally drop overnight.

GH is the amount of calcium and magnesium chloride in the water. This is what you want if you keep hard water fish. The GH does not normally affect pH in a big way but can offer some buffering to the pH (helps reduce the rate at which the pH can drop). But it's not a lot. KH normally controls pH.

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If your pH is 9 or above, then it should be reduced so it is closer to 7.0. Whether you use peat or pH down is up to you. The main thing is to try and avoid variation in the pH and to minimise chemicals going into the water. And adjust the pH before adding it to the tank, which you are doing.

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Water softeners are usually ion exchange units that take out calcium and replace it with sodium. Too much sodium is bad for fish, people and other animals.

The best way to get softer water is to use a reverse osmosis (R/O) unit or distill water.

You wouldn't need to use 100% R/O or distilled water. You could mix 1 part of R/O with 3 parts tap water to reduce the GH and KH of your water by 1/4. Your pH would also come down.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

I've been reading up on R/O units and I don't think it's anything I could install myself - I can't even understand it - plus most are really unclear about how much R/O water gets produced per day - and when you're changing water in 3 aquariums per week an R/O unit that produces 6 gallons per day isn't going to cut it. Plus I RENT my duplex - no lease signed but technically not allowed to have pets of any kind (they don't know about my aquariums or my cat) - I would have to hire a plumber to install this. I guess I could ask them to install it with the rational that I want cleaner water. Are there any R/O units you have in mind in particular - none of the descriptions on Amazon are very clear about how to store the water (they come with little tanks - not going to cut it with the amount I need to store). I'm imagining having trash barrels all over my kitchen (which is tiny) trying to store enough water.

Anyway unless I were to get extensive help picking out a unit and being assured I'd have plenty of R/O water to cover my tanks I'm not purchasing anything that expensive given the cost of replacement filters. I cannot carry a lot of water - I get my groceries delivered because I'm not strong enough to carry them from my car into my house. The store that delivers doesn't have a distilled water machine - it just carries gallon jugs of distilled water and rarely do they stock more than a dozen or so (I use them for my respiratory equipment) - I'd need a LOT more than that each week. I have a friend who cleans my tanks for me each week - but right now I'm changing the tank with the roundworms daily myself. It takes me 3-4 hours because I have to rest so often. It takes her 1.5 hours to do a far more extensive cleaning. She works full time and has small children (with lots of germs I don't dare be exposed to) so she can't come over daily. They recently all had Influenza A (even after being vaccinated) - H1N1 nearly killed me a few years ago and caused so much damage it is why I'm on oxygen. My lung capacity is 20% of normal - I lost 15% with that flu - I don't have 15% more to give and survive. Sorry for the depressing back story. Not looking for sympathy (it is, what it is) but explain my special situation.

Thanks for your great explanation of KH and GH especially in relation to PH. I'm not entirely sure why I can fix my water to 7.0 and it slowly drops over a week's time given my levels of KH and GH but my PH is overall OK as long as I do my routine water changes so I'm not going to worry about it much. As my fish pass away I imagine I will consolidate tanks and get down to 1 or 2 tanks. I need to put my extra large Gourami's and Cichlid in a 55 gallon tank so I'd like to get down to 1 55 gallon tank and 1 29 gallon tank but we'll see - many of my fish have very long life expectancies so that may be quite a few years. Looking at used and new 55 gallon tanks right now but concerned about water leakage should one burst water all over my beautiful hardwood floors. I actually enjoy my big fish and I think the aggression level would drop significantly in a 55 gallon tank. Otherwise I may be rehoming my Cichlid who is the problem child, not to mention huge (but oh so cute and funny). I really enjoy the personalities of all my fish and would like to keep them all rather than give to a fish store and never know the care they'll receive.

Anyway - thanks again for the explanation. Very helpful. Chemistry class is all coming back to me.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Oh to clarify - I set my PH at 7.0 but during the week it falls to about 6-6.7. My KH values (which control PH) are fairly low so I can't believe the KH values are causing the drop - it's not a big drop so maybe it is enough. My GH is semi-high and yet it has minimal impact on PH. Just trying to keep my PH at 7 without constantly drifting downward during a week's time - if I let my water changes go longer I'm afraid my PH would be in the 5's.

 

[Colin_T]

Reverse Osmosis units don't have to be built in or fitted anywhere in particular. We had one in the shop that sat on the floor and we just ran a garden hose to it. The R/O water went into a large plastic storage barrel (like a plastic wine barrel), and the waste water went out the door onto the garden. The barrel was on a stand and we just drained the R/O water out as we needed it.

R/O units do produce a lot of waste water. This is the water with all the nutrients and minerals in. The best R/O units have a 1 to 1 conversion rate (1:1). This means they give 1 litre of R/O water and produce 1 litre of waste water. Cheaper quality units might have a 1:2 ratio where they make 1 litre of R/O water and have 2 litres of waste water.

I can't help with various models of R/O unit because I haven't used one in 20 years and that was the one in the shop. There are people on this forum that do use them and hopefully they can help more with this.

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You need a 200 litre plastic barrel to store water in and use a small water pump and length of plastic hose to fill your tanks with. It would be a lot easier than carrying jugs of water. You have a U shape made from pvc pipe on the end of the hose and that holds the hose onto the side of the tank. Have the water pump in the barrel of water. Turn the pump on and let it pump water from the barrel into the tank. Turn off pump when tank is full. Remove hose and pvc U. Tank filled in a couple of minutes.

Mind you, using a pump to fill the tanks means you won't get a good workout and develop Arnold Schwarzenegger arms

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Thanks for your great explanation of KH and GH especially in relation to PH. I'm not entirely sure why I can fix my water to 7.0 and it slowly drops over a week's time given my levels of KH and GH but my PH is overall OK as long as I do my routine water changes so I'm not going to worry about it much.

I don't understand the question. Did you miss a t so it was meant to read "I'm not entirely sure why I can't fix my water to 7.0 and it slowly drops over a week's time"?

If so, fish waste and rotting food produce acids that are continuously being neutralised by the KH in the water. If there is lots of acid being produced, the KH won't be able to neutralise it all and the pH will drop even though you have some KH in the water.

The easiest way to fix this is to reduce the food going into the tank or add some limestone, shells or coral rubble to the tank or filter. These are made from calcium carbonate and will help neutralise acids in the water and stop the pH dropping too quickly.

 

[Byron]

This has been explained several times, but you seem to have a fixation on pH. Leave it alone. Now we know the GH and KH, you can as Colin said have fish that are suited to the GH, and that is all that really matters. The GH impacts the fish's physiology.

The pH over time, if you stopped messing with it by dumping in chemicals, would stabalize. Go with it.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Byron - thank you for your straightforwardness and blunt honesty. I need to let this issue go - people are sick of my whining and so am I. (can I get some "likes" for this post?)

Colin - Love your description - I can really visualize what you describe although I've never seen a water pump before. I'll have to give more serious thought to an RO unit - I have a water facet outside and a large deck - then it's just a matter of running a hose (about 60 feet worth) through the house. Now don't the fish freeze to death using cold water? I could run a hose from my sink to the RO unit and another hose to the tanks but the water would still eventually be far colder since the tank would have to be outside. Those -20 degree days in the winter I'd have to run the water from my household faucet since any connected outdoor faucet will burst. And quite a bit of the water could freeze solid even if it's 50 gallons. So instead I guess I'd better put the tank in my small kitchen because it can't be kept outdoors. I'll just live off of sandwiches, I don't have to cook. Just thinking out loud…… Now I've got a new obsession.

I'm missing my Arnold arms already (I gave in and hired a helper. I'd hate to put her out of a job -single mom with a drug addict ex that just broke in her house and stole the cash from the last job I paid her for but she's far more mechanical than I am and strong and smart so I'll keep her) .

And thanks for the explanation of why my PH slowly drops over the week - it makes sense and it's not serious enough to worry about. I REALLY AM getting better about not over feeding, but I fear I still overfeed a little bit - I just don't want anybody to go hungry.

 

[Colin_T]

A small aquarium water pump can be the pump off an internal power filter or something like an AquaClear Powerhead or an Eheim hobby pump. They all work off the same principle and are all submersible water pumps. You just have a pump in the water barrel and some clear plastic hose on the outlet of the pump. The hose goes into the tank and the pump pushes the water out of the barrel and into the aquarium.

You would need to keep the barrel of water in the house to stop it freezing.

R/O units are pretty slow too. You turn them on and walk away and come back a day later for the water. They don't run anywhere near as quickly as a normal tap/ faucet.

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An alternative to the barrel of water is a double tier stand. Basically you have 1 stand with 2 aquariums on it (one above the other). The top tank has the fish in and the bottom tank is used for water storage.

When you do a water change, you gravel clean and drain the water out of the top tank and onto the lawn/ garden. You then use a small water pump and hose to pump water from the bottom tank up into the top tank. After that you refill the bottom tank with tap water, add dechlorinator and leave it to aerate until you do the next water change.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

The two tier stand would be a possibility -right now all my stands are old antique dressers that have the top covered in thick plastic to prevent water damage, so I'd have some serious re-arranging of my house to do. Are you saying that since you are letting the water aerate you don't need to go with R/O or you can take your time with R/O? Part of all the problem with any solution is that you are turning your house into an aquarium museum and I want to keep my house looking like a house so having barrels in kitchens or extra tanks of water sitting around. I have a fair number of my friend's children that come over and my own daughter is due in June with #1. I can see all sorts of grubby little hands and pieces of cookie in those bottom tanks LOL.

I'll think about both those options - thanks for thinking about all this for me.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Also with the R/O - since it's so slow and I need 87 gallons a week I'd basically be running it most of the time meaning I'd have to leave a window open or back door open to run off the rest of the water. That's kind of a problem - besides criminal break-ins I can see my gas and electric bill triple and my water bill double- so that really sucks.

 

[Colin_T]

The R/O water shouldn't have anything to do with the gas or power bills unless that's in reference to extra heating costs. In which case you can have the waste water go down a drain or store it in another container and drain it onto the lawn during the day when it's warmer.

Another option is to make a solar still. You have a plastic storage container half full of water. You put a clean bucket inside the storage container and put a rock in the bucket to hold it down (so it doesn't move around). Put the lid on the storage container and add a small weight to the middle of the lid. As the water in the storage container evaporates, it condenses on the lid and runs towards the middle, where it drips into the bucket. After a period of time the bucket has some pure water in and can be used instead of R/O water.

You don't need to use 100% R/O water for the water changes. You would use it mixed with tap water to reduce the GH. You would use 1 part R/O and 3 parts tap water to get a lower GH for the soft water fishes.

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Aerating the water has nothing to do with it being R/O or tap water. It is more to keep it fresh and to allow any dechlorinators a chance to come in contact with all the chlorine/ chloramine in the tap water that is held in the container.

R/O water should be aerated before it is used to get the dissolved gasses back to a normal level.

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Re: the double tier stands. You can have cupboard doors on the bottom of the stand to cover the lower tank. This would make it look more like a cabinet and a couple of child proof locks on the doors would stop the little kids getting into it.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I was thinking of jumping in here but the post was addressed to 'the experts who know who they are".
I've only been in the hobby for 50+ years and I'm still learning!

 

[Colin_T]

I was thinking of jumping in here but the post was addressed to 'the experts who know who they are".
I've only been in the hobby for 50+ years and I'm still learning!

You're one of the A+ students, you can join in