To crop & dock or Not ??

[SRC]

Actually I'm not trying to do that at all. I'm trying to find out why those procedures are accepted, why the research for the docking procedures are not accepted, and why it's ok to Ban one altering procedure and not another.

You are right though..I am fully aware that this argument will never end. There are too many people with too many varying opinions. But I believe that the "bans" that are happening in other countries are no more legitamate then the ban of certain breed's here in the states.

But my opinion is more bias then yours..becasue I have alot more "rights" here in the states then alot of other countries do. So I guess in that respect one might say I am "spoiled" in my opinions.

I can't help that one prodecure contradicts another though. I just usually need to compare things to give myself reasoning behind something.

(just for the sake of responding ...a newborn has no more response then an animal...and you are removing part of it's body. Some men do not appreciate it having been removed once they reach adulthood. It's a choice the parents make for the child.)

 

[Haiku]

Well, I lied. Not intentionally but I just could not resist seeing what you had to say. I apologize if my impression of your intentions in this debate were wrong. I tend to get frustrated by board arguments (and thus usually avoid them) because it's so difficult to really address everything the way I'd like and is so easy to misunderstand or have one's words turned around from how they were meant. At this point, I just can't type anymore, or put anymore time into it and there wouldn't be a lot of point to it anyway, but I did want to apologize if I misunderstood your intentions in continuing the argument.

 

[julibob]

I really will say no more now. Had my previous posts been read fully, then NO offence should have been taken

Barney has both double dew claws, natural ears and is still entire! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I appreciate that docking and cropping is still legal and everyday common practice in some countries that have never done any different, and would not feel as strongly as those in countries where it has been outlawed for decades.

Julia

 

[kimbowee]

I am not attacking anyone for their opinions. I think everyone is entitled to their own. The facts that I have presented are from personal experience.

I have had the last 2 dogs I have owned nuetered. One was a rescue dog & it is required by the shelter and pretty sure also Illinois law that any dog or cat adopted by a shelter be spayed or neutered. The other dog I neutered for medical reasons. Since there is more evidence of the health benefits from spaying/neuturing I am more likely to have it done in the future but is still questionable.


I would not do it for my own personal benefit. I do obedience train animals as a side job. There is some difference in older dogs who have not been neutered. However, if the dogs would have had training earlier most of the problems could have been avoided. I don't think that spaying or neutering just because you want a mellow animal is exactly a good reason.

I do not believe in descenting of animals. It is an unneccessary procedure. If you don't like the way it smells, don't buy it. I also used to own ferrets. The three I bought were not descented. The one I took in as a rescue was. Truthfully there isn't that much of a difference. Ferrets still retain their scent glands under the skin that can not be removed. So basically removing the anal gland only makes them a little less "stinky". They still retain the same scents only the anal gland produces more.

SRC, to answer your question as to why I feel the way I do. Most of the dogs that are still being cropped and docked are not even working class dogs anymore. People are altering them for basically personal pleasure. They want a dog that is eye candy. That is what I don't agree with it. I don't agree with cropping/docking just in case something might happen, especially when the breed is not a working class. I would be happy to settle for banning of docking and cropping of dogs who are no longer actually working dogs. And in my original statement about breeders docking their own pups tail was not entirely how I meant it to come out. I was trying to state that a breeder will have it done by themselves or a vet.

I do not mean in any way to come off as being rude or offensive to anyone and am not picking on anyone for what they believe in. These are just my personal opinions.

I am also glad to see that the AKC no longer disqualifies a natural dog from competing.

And no, SRC, I also do not agree with the banning of certain dogs here in the states. Yes, some dogs are born more aggressive then others, so are humans. With proper training and socialization you can still have a well rounded animal. Maybe a ban on idiots who starve & torture an animal to make it attack anything in site would be a good idea. I'll save that for another debate too.

 

[Opcn]

?Circumsicion has a handful of medical benefits but you lose alot of nerves, dogs have few nerves to lose in there ears tails and dewclaws, they are hwever good places to get infections, No dog suffers medical problems from a lack of dewclaws, however quite a few dogs get them caught and torn off, My father had a newzealand sheperd who was docked but still had his dewclaws, unfortunately he tore them off, very painful, huge infection, not good. Also, no dogs without tails break them, dogs dont really benefit that much from there tails, plus I'll bet its fun to wiggle your butt like that.

 

[vantgE]

I thought ears were cropped up with like a pin or metal stick inserted into them? Either way I voted for docking alright and cropping wrong. My dog is happy the way she is, looks great, and is extremely healthy. I highly doubt she has any memory of the docking and evr felt any lasting pain
Cocker spaniel

 

[Bloo]

Barney has both double dew claws, natural ears and is still entire!

Julia, just a reminder that if you have no intention of breeding with him, it's by far better to have him neutered. I know he's only still young, but prostate cancer can strike at any age. In this case it's rather safe than sorry.
It's a quick and simple procedure with very low risk (in comparison to other surgical procedures).
In fact, the small rish in the procedure outweighs the rish of prostate cancer.

 

[SRC]

When they crop an ear...
(waring: there are pictures of an actual cropping being done..there are also pictures of crop jobs and taping below. The pictures depict what goes on..and you can note, that they are not bloody..as I'm sure you have imagined)







The puppy is tested before hand to be sure that they will come back out of anethesia (if your vet does not suggest this..go to another vet).

The puppy (if found healthy enough) is put under anethesia and the vet places the puppy on it's tummy, usually either rolled towels or a foam block is used to hold the dog's head in place, so there is no risk of it flopping over in the middle of the procedure. They are also given a medication to reduce bleeding during surgery (special note that Boxer's require different anethesia then most other dogs..if your vet does not suggest this..GO TO ANOTHER VET).

The vet lays the ears out and marks the areas that he will remove, so that they are symetrical, so the cuts will be in the right places (only get one shot at this).

The part of the ear that is to be removed is cometimes clamped off using a special type clamp (differnt shapes are used for different breeds) but not all vets use these clamps..they they are cut off with a scapel and lasered to seal the edges, to further help reduce bleeding.

After the parts of the ear have been removed the edges are stitched with very small stictches, there will usually be anywhere from 10-20 on each ear (this depends on the cut you get. A "show" cut is the longest and will have more stitches where as a "military" or "pet" cut is the shortest and will require much less)...the stitches are relatively small maybe not even --> X <-- big. Either absorbable stitches or "real" stiches can be used. Personally I preferred the absorbable ones..so you don't have to go back and have them removed. They also stay in better...as when they start to itch the pup will often rub their ears on things and "real" stitches have a tendency to become brittle and pop...if they do this you have to have them re-stitched..which is a pain (for both owner and pup).

The ear is then fitted with a "rack". This consist of a post (usually made from the unused cardboard or plastic portion of a tampon that has been wrapped with surgical tape (but you can make your own out of styrofoam pieces or anything similar that does not have a rough/sharp edge and that is long enough to accomodate the ear)...so there are no harsh edges) inserted into the ear canal and then attached to the ear with surgical tape, so that the ear is made to stand up...as much of the edge as possible is left exposed while the stiches are healing though (otherwise they can get infected).

After 2 weeks the stitches should have been absorbed and it is ok to tape the entire ear up. Although you need to change the bandages eatleast every 3 days to prevent "gooyies". The ear wax will build up in the ear from a lack of air flow...so you need to take the ear down and use a cotton ball to swab the ears out and keep them clean...to prevent infection.

I'm sorry..but I just don't see the "brutality" that some of the people against cropping say is there. Every effort is made to ensure the health and welfare of the pup, along with the least amount of pain as possible. The only thing they have to endure is about a month to a month and a half of wearing racks...and even that doesn't seem to bother them all that much..if you do it it at a younger age (usually between 9-12 weeks) they don't even notice that it's there.

As with some other dogs with naturally flapping ears, Dobermans experience complications such as ear infections unless their ears are cropped. Inside their ears, two inches behind the kiss mark on the cheek, Dobes have deep pockets that easily trap moisture. Having these pockets open to air circulation helps keep them dry and less prone to infections.
http/www.suite101.com/article.cfm/10655/57969

 

[Angry_Platy]

Thanks for the info SRC but I am still not convinced. Any surgery has its risks and this surgery is NOT necessary for the dogs. Its bad enough when animals have to have surgery for bad things that need fixing etc. Why subject an animal to unnecessary surgery?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Correct me if i am wrong, but cropping a dogs ears is about as life threatening as getting your own ears peirced?

 

[Angry_Platy]

Correct me if i am wrong, but cropping a dogs ears is about as life threatening as getting your own ears peirced?

Since when have humans needed general anaesthetic to have their ears pierced?

 

[OohFeeshy]

And when you have your ears pierced, you choose it. Piercing is a relatively painless procedure, if it was, humans wouldn't have it done. You may argue about parents that have their kids ears pierced, again, its pretty painless, and can be reversed later (ie, the holes cloased up). The kid would also probably want their ears pierced when thy got older anyway. You can't ask a puppy if it wants its ears left whole or sliced up to make it look better. You may argue it decreases ear infection, but if it was really that nessecary their ears would stand up naturally. Its completely wrong to compare docking and cropping to anything done to humans.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

You could use the same arguement on castrating dogs, the dogs doesn't want to be castrated, its a painful proceedure for it, but we do it anyway because it is convinient for us.

 

[Bloo]

I beg to disagree on this one - castrating a dog can in many cases save it's life as prostate cancer in male dogs is quite a high risk - and in the vast majority of cases is fatal (as this cancer is usually only noticed far too late ).

It's a very simple and also quick procedure with very low risk of complications.
The dog wakes up a bit groggy, but with the pain meds he doesn't even feel a thing (pain wise) and by the time that wears off there is little to no pain pain at all left.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Would you rather keep your balls and run the risk of prostate cancer or have them chopped off or would you rather just have your ears clipped?