This Isnt Whitespot.. It Cant Be

[shelaghfishface]

as per my other thread about 3 weeks ago, my clown loaches got what i thought was whitespot, i added the 2nd dose of the 2nd round of meds today ( thats it finished now)

have seen the loaches today for the first time up clearly in a good while

i really dont think its whitespot, the patches are much larger than grains of sugar more like blotches ( gone thin, poking out eyes- unless they just look so cos hes thin)

im trying to add a very clear pic that i managed to get, just about to ptry on my pc as laptop is playing up

feel guttd as one is obviously very very sick,and cos i havent seen them i havent noticed
not only that ive wasted all this time treating for white spot

just to recap
i got a molly that developed mouth rot within hours, killed most of my fish but the loaches were fine, then i asked for advice with a pic and was told ( understandibly) that it was white spot, i really dont think its that now, as like i say the blotches are way bigger than sugar grains, had it been whitespot im sure i would have had some luck as i started treating when he had about 5 spots

i think im going to put the very sick one to sleep tonight, i cant let him go thru anymore
but all the same would like a diagnoses and how to treat so that i can help the other 2



ill get that pic up asap

 

[WILDER]

Just a quick reply as i'm off for my tea soon.
Being skinny can be skinny desease clowns get when they have internal parasites.
Are the eyes bulging out.
Are the patches bemeath the skin.
Is it possible to load a pic up of the sick clown loach.
Any signs of flicking and rubbing.
Internal parasites cause bacterial infections.

[URL="http/www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artikl...own%20loach.htm"]http/www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artikl...own%20loach.htm[/URL]

Info taken from the link.

Loss of weight or "skinny disease" is also quite common in Clown loaches. Typical symptoms are loss of weight and behaviour known as "knifeback" even though the fish is acting and eating normally. This sickness is more difficult to treat, it comes from a parasite organism (spironucleus) in the intestines of the same type that is thought to cause the so called "discus disease". I have successfully removed this disease from newly imported fish by using Spirohexol from JBL in the form of tablets. I have taken one tablet and crushed it and dissolve it in as little water as possible. I have then used discus granules which have been soaked in the solution. It becomes like a thick porridge after a short time when the food has drawn in the liquid. I then feed this to the sick fishes, after a week it looks like the sickness is gone. For the best possible effect do not feed with any other food. Flagyl (Metronidazole) also helps fight against this sickness but at least here in Sweden it is on prescription and can be a little difficult to come by.



Apart from this Clown loaches are not more susceptible than other fish, the above sickness usually occurs in fish that have been stressed during transport or subjected to other stress factors like cold water or poor aquarium hygiene. Do not buy fish that look emaciated! Well looked after fish are seldom sick. To quote my friend Elisabeth Hallberg; "the best way to avoid sickness is to keep the fish healthy".



Breeding:

 

[shelaghfishface]

heres the pic, i hasten to add that hes not netted, hes resting on the side of a breeding net ( the outside of one)

this one isnt looking too bad, maybe he has a hope ? ( well not in the flesh he dosent look to bad anyway)

 

[WILDER]

It does look to big for whitespot.
Does it look fluffy.
His eyes are big in the first pic, but can't tell if there bulging out.
They are on the thin side abit but not really skinny.
Just going to ask colin t to see what he thinks.

Just going to look at your other thread aswell.

 

[WILDER]

Read your other thread now.
Couldn't see the spots on the fish as my eyes are not that good.
If no other fish showed signs of whitespot I doubt it is that. If the spots are big is not whitespot.
It could be columnaris if there no signs of flicking and rubbing, or excess mucas.

 

[Colin_T]

It looks like whitespot to me. It could be the fish is suffering from an internal problem and that is weakening its immune system and allowing the Ich to stay put. It could also explain why none of the other fishes have whitespot.
The fish is a bit emaciated and the swollen eye could be an indication of an internal bacterial or protozoan infection. It could also be suffering from intestinal worms, which would weaken the fish further and allow secondary infections to get in.
A possible combination of intestinal worms, maybe gill flukes, internal bacterial or protozoan infection is causing the fish to be really weak and the whitespot is just putting the last nail in the coffin so to speak.

Check the Ich medication and see if it contains Formalin, Malachite green and Copper. If it does contain these ingredients then it should get rid of the whitespot.

Make sure you don't have any carbon in the filter when treating.

Possibly treat the fish for intestinal worms as well if you can. I think Flubendazole (Flubenol) treats whitespot parasites as well as intestinal worms, but not 100% on that because we don't get the drugs here. Alternatively do a big (75-90%) water change and complete gravel clean. Clean the filter as well. Then treat the fish for intestinal worms. The following day, (24hours later) do another big water change and start treating for whitespot again. Repeat the process in a weeks time to kill off any remaining worms that might have hatched out.

You can try feeding the fish more often. That might help build up its overall health a bit and help it to fight off some of the problems. Just make sure you keep an eye on water quality because most medications will knock the beneficial filter bacteria around and can cause ammonia problems.

You can also try adding vitamin and mineral supplements to its diet. Vitamin C and betacarotene are both readily available and can be sprinkled or dripped onto some frozen food, left to soak for a few minutes, and then fed to the fish. They can be fed this each day for a week then several times a week after that.
Alternatively give them orange coloured fruits and veges to eat. These will contain Vitamin C and betacarotne, and other much needed nutrients they might be lacking.

 

[milkton]

no offence, but that looks pretty screwed up.

 

[shelaghfishface]

yes colin it contains malchite green and formaldehyde ( maybe this is the same as formalin)

the med was interpet number6 anti white spot
no carbon in the filter and was doing large water change in between dosing, heat is up to 80 and areation was added
no other fish are effected
fish are fed 3 times a day on flakes for the danios,ciclid pellets for the angels and algae wafers for the BN and clown loaches, cucumber for all ( cucumber is not everyday)

in this time i have used number8 ( finrot) ran carbon after that and WC then added salt ( tonic tank salt) now this, i think the time to treat has passed now its not fair on him
but its something thats is deffo only effecting the clown loaches, and any more treatment is surley going to have side effects for the rest of the fish
filter has been up and down with all the meds,so i think the best thing i can do is euthanise the loaches and get the tank back on track for the others
im not convinced ive done enough, tho ive done everything that ive been told and had i seen them sooner i would have picked up on them getting worse sooner, but in the past i have had a tendency to " interfere, doing too may water changes while treating etc, so i took that and tried to leave alone, maybe right or wrong

wilder theres no flicking rubbing, they are very quite and subdued, just seem to be resting

 

[minxfishy]

It can take a few courses to clear whitespot, it doesnt always go on the first round of treatment. Have the spots at any point come off the fish ? Just wondering if this is a re-infection from not killing the parasite with the first treatment or are these still the same spots, in which case, up the temp another couple of degress to get it to fall off, the only way to kill it, is once its fallen off, thats when to hit it with meds, if that doesnt co-inside with the day they fall off, then the med doesnt work, thats why I dont use interpet treatment as you only dose on certain days.

 

[keenonfish]

It looks similar to what my betta had and I am convinced while everyone said it was whitespot I think it was Columnaris tbh - there was one fluffy (although not much) bit but mostly like individual scales effected similar to above and absolutely no flicking / rubbing or discomfort... Also the spots were larger than typical whitespot like your example too. Mine was not as bad as yours though Shelagh...

I used JBL Ektol Crystal which is said to treat white spot & columnaris amongst other things - It did treat a particularly bad case of saddleback (columnaris, same as mouth rot) in a neon and platy about a year or two ago so you could give it a try... About £8 A 100g tub but should last a long time...
However I appreciate it is not a well know med but you might have nothing to lose here?

 

[twohuskies]

If it's not responding to whitespot (ich) treatment, then I'd try something for fungus. Since some of the spots DO look larger than the typical ich, I'd try something else before euthanizing the beautiful loaches. Can you get the Jungle Anti-Fungal fizzing tabs in the UK?

ETA: I just re-read your first post about the history. The mouth fungus of the molly that started all of this makes me re-think that it's fungal. It may be, as another posted, columnaris or something bacterial. I don't know the name for the meds in the UK, but here in the US, we use Maracyn AND Maracyn II together. Check out this thread: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=289342 for the medication names in the UK.

Honestly, I would try treating for columnaris before euthanizing the beautiful loaches. The weight loss is also a sign of columnaris, as my fish quit eating entirely for about 4 days. BUT, with the treatment, he made a full recovery!

Do check out that thread, and let us know how your loaches are doing.

 

[modaz]

it looks like fungus and whitespot together to be honest

 

[shelaghfishface]

no minx the spots have never gone, tho he was never too bad, i think it is something else, i put him out of his misery today it would be immoral to keep him alive like this, im searching like mad to find some thing similar on google, ive done water change and run carbon now so hopefully i can help the last 2

 

[WILDER]

Bless Him. R.I.P.

There a jbl med here they suggested for skinny desease.
http/www.hobbyfish.net/index.php?prodID=4014162100375

 

[Colin_T]

Formalin and Formaldehyde are virtually the same stuff.

You can try putting the loaches into a clean container of water. Each day you move the fish into another clean container with clean water. The Ich parasites should fall off the fish and sit on the bottom of the container. Then when you move the fish into another container, you leave the parasites behind and eventually the fish becomes free of the parasite. Do this each day for a week and the fish should be clean.
This method can be used on any fish and does not require any medication, so is better for the fish.

Although flakes, pellets & wafers will sustain fish and allow them to grow slowly, you should really try to add something a little more substantial to their diet. Raw prawn, fish, worms, insects & their larvae are all good foods to use to build up the fish. Raw prawn in particular is one of the better foods for fattening up fish and helping them recover from ill health. The main thing to watch out for with frozen or live foods is water quality. Frozen foods will create more ammonia and possibly cause your water quality to go off a bit quicker than normal. However, the benefits of frozen and live foods make a significant difference to the fish's health so a few extra water changes are a small price to pay.