orange shark
Fish Herder
oh and for the record that was downright rude to someone who was trying to help you out
Thinking Of Going From Fresh To Marine
- Thread starter GShorty1981
- Start date
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
"For the record" there is no point leaving it a week before starting to mess around in my thread again,your posts come across rude,childish and one liners aint helpful,this was done and dusted along time ago so please jog on.
So much for my tank disaster anyway Orange Shark,your speculation is rubbish mate....how much of your stuff has gone wrong? I have had nothing go wrong,nothing die,nothing fight,no Algae,no Ammonia spike....none of what you were preaching here...Month of running and perfect tank. (other than looks wise cos it looks ugly right now).
So before you come around here preaching,you might wanna look at yourself and your own achievements and the fact i dont really want your advice in the manner you put it across.
If you start bashing my thread from here again i will simply leave this forum and use somewhere where they dont allow kids loose ruining peoples threads and aggravating people for personal kicks.
So much for my tank disaster anyway Orange Shark,your speculation is rubbish mate....how much of your stuff has gone wrong? I have had nothing go wrong,nothing die,nothing fight,no Algae,no Ammonia spike....none of what you were preaching here...Month of running and perfect tank. (other than looks wise cos it looks ugly right now).
So before you come around here preaching,you might wanna look at yourself and your own achievements and the fact i dont really want your advice in the manner you put it across.
If you start bashing my thread from here again i will simply leave this forum and use somewhere where they dont allow kids loose ruining peoples threads and aggravating people for personal kicks.
Whoa gentleman, settle down here for a minute and take some deep breaths. Everyone needs to remember that text responses carry very little in the form of intent or emotion and that it's very easy to mistake someone's true meaning. It's very easy for posts here and anywhere on the net to be misconstrued especially when the poster may be pressed for time and just trying to help with something short and sweet. As much as I try and offer info when possible, even I fire off quick posts sometimes when in a hurry. By the same token we all should realize that in the marine world, disaster happens quickly and beauty takes time. Therefore if someone doesn't have time to fully explain and posts a quick warning about something, it might be good to do a leittle research on the topic to get a better idea for it. The search button on these forums and/or google can come in handy 
To clear up some of the facts here and offer you some knowledge Glen I'll try and explain the chemistry here. Forgive me if I'm using/explaining terms you already understand but I'm gonna try and write this so anyone who reads this can understand it.
Seawater mixes contain primarily sodium, chloride, magnesium, calcium, and carbonate. When mixed to a salt concentration of 35ppt/1.026sg with pure water (ie RO or distilled) the resulting solution is nearly saturated in therms of the later three which means you can't dissolve many more ions into the solution before they start forming back into salts. Now, most tapwater contains magnesium, calcium, and carbomate in it. Thus when you add enough seawater mix to get a salt concentration of 35ppt/1.026sg with tapwater you now have MORE mag/calc/alk in solution. Depending on how much your tapwater has, you can supersaturate the solution which means you have too many of the ions in solution and they want to go back into salt form. They do so by forming calcium carbonate salt which is either a white chalky powder or in high enough concentrations is like thick chalk called a precipitate. The precipitate is more likely to form if the pH is high, the temperature is low, or the water is stagnant. Conversely, lowering the pH, raising the temperature, or stirring up the water will act to raise the saturation point and deter the formation of calcium carbonate precipitate.
So, oftem times (but not always) when tapwater is mixed with seawater mix in a bucket with nothing else, the resulting solution is cold, has a high pH from excess carbonate, and is stagnant. This often creates conditions ideal for the formation of calcium carbonate precipitate in the bucket, lining it with a hard white residue. Adding a powerhead to move the water will increase gas exchange (thus increasing CO2 exchange) and keep the pH a tad lower. Furthermore it adds energy to the bucket in the form of moving water which deters the formation of calcium carbonate. And finally, adding a heater allows more solutiblity of carbonate and prevents precipitation.
One other argument for using a powerhead is the dissolution of all the ions in seawater mix. When seawater mix is mixed with water (RO or tap) the salts all dissolve at their own rates and concentrations. In a stagnant body of water this can create local areas of supersaturation of one or more ions and pH will swing WILDLY locally within the bucket. Measuring pH near the top might be totally different than near the side of the bottom shortly after the seawater mix is added. If you add a powerhead to stir the solution it eliminates these local problem areas in the bucket and stabilizes the solution much faster allowing it to be safely added to your aquarium.
Having said all that, we now a lot of what's going on in salt mixing. If you want more in depth reading, fire up the google and search for any articles by Dr Randy Holmes-Farley regarding salt mixes and how to use them. Moving forward, I kindly suggest that we all give each other a pass here for misconstrued intentions and proceed with a constructive thread. Moving forward insults, retaliations, and ultimatums will not be tolerated and all contributions here should be constructive in nature by any poster. We're right at the line here, and I'd appreciate not testing each other's restraint. I can always be reached via PM if something needs to be said that you don't want to regret saying publicly.
Regards,
SkiFletch
To clear up some of the facts here and offer you some knowledge Glen I'll try and explain the chemistry here. Forgive me if I'm using/explaining terms you already understand but I'm gonna try and write this so anyone who reads this can understand it.
Seawater mixes contain primarily sodium, chloride, magnesium, calcium, and carbonate. When mixed to a salt concentration of 35ppt/1.026sg with pure water (ie RO or distilled) the resulting solution is nearly saturated in therms of the later three which means you can't dissolve many more ions into the solution before they start forming back into salts. Now, most tapwater contains magnesium, calcium, and carbomate in it. Thus when you add enough seawater mix to get a salt concentration of 35ppt/1.026sg with tapwater you now have MORE mag/calc/alk in solution. Depending on how much your tapwater has, you can supersaturate the solution which means you have too many of the ions in solution and they want to go back into salt form. They do so by forming calcium carbonate salt which is either a white chalky powder or in high enough concentrations is like thick chalk called a precipitate. The precipitate is more likely to form if the pH is high, the temperature is low, or the water is stagnant. Conversely, lowering the pH, raising the temperature, or stirring up the water will act to raise the saturation point and deter the formation of calcium carbonate precipitate.
So, oftem times (but not always) when tapwater is mixed with seawater mix in a bucket with nothing else, the resulting solution is cold, has a high pH from excess carbonate, and is stagnant. This often creates conditions ideal for the formation of calcium carbonate precipitate in the bucket, lining it with a hard white residue. Adding a powerhead to move the water will increase gas exchange (thus increasing CO2 exchange) and keep the pH a tad lower. Furthermore it adds energy to the bucket in the form of moving water which deters the formation of calcium carbonate. And finally, adding a heater allows more solutiblity of carbonate and prevents precipitation.
One other argument for using a powerhead is the dissolution of all the ions in seawater mix. When seawater mix is mixed with water (RO or tap) the salts all dissolve at their own rates and concentrations. In a stagnant body of water this can create local areas of supersaturation of one or more ions and pH will swing WILDLY locally within the bucket. Measuring pH near the top might be totally different than near the side of the bottom shortly after the seawater mix is added. If you add a powerhead to stir the solution it eliminates these local problem areas in the bucket and stabilizes the solution much faster allowing it to be safely added to your aquarium.
Having said all that, we now a lot of what's going on in salt mixing. If you want more in depth reading, fire up the google and search for any articles by Dr Randy Holmes-Farley regarding salt mixes and how to use them. Moving forward, I kindly suggest that we all give each other a pass here for misconstrued intentions and proceed with a constructive thread. Moving forward insults, retaliations, and ultimatums will not be tolerated and all contributions here should be constructive in nature by any poster. We're right at the line here, and I'd appreciate not testing each other's restraint. I can always be reached via PM if something needs to be said that you don't want to regret saying publicly.
Regards,
SkiFletch
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
Thanx for the info..woah alot to take in lol.
Nowadays i put the water in a bucket,half hot from kettle,half cold....dechlorinate.wait 20 mins,add salt,stir constantly for about 20 mins...let it settle,stir it again for ten..let it settle,test the salinity again..once i have it at 1.022 and visabley disolved i then pour it into the tank.
If i decide to go into RO i will,but right now i'm not spending lots on corals so I'm happy to keep it how it is.
I mean if my fish are happy and quite obviously so i don't see the need at all and dont want to feel forced into doing methods other people here do.
If TAC one of the best marine shops in the UK thought it was funny and OTT when i said about the powerhead idea,thats enough for me.
Honestly tho im annoyed now,my tanks progressing the threads progressing and now this thread is gonna do a great U turn...wait n see.
edit
infact i am just gonna stop using this site..im really pissed off.
Nowadays i put the water in a bucket,half hot from kettle,half cold....dechlorinate.wait 20 mins,add salt,stir constantly for about 20 mins...let it settle,stir it again for ten..let it settle,test the salinity again..once i have it at 1.022 and visabley disolved i then pour it into the tank.
If i decide to go into RO i will,but right now i'm not spending lots on corals so I'm happy to keep it how it is.
I mean if my fish are happy and quite obviously so i don't see the need at all and dont want to feel forced into doing methods other people here do.
If TAC one of the best marine shops in the UK thought it was funny and OTT when i said about the powerhead idea,thats enough for me.
Honestly tho im annoyed now,my tanks progressing the threads progressing and now this thread is gonna do a great U turn...wait n see.
edit
infact i am just gonna stop using this site..im really pissed off.
CageUK
Fishaholic
I hope you reconsider your decision to leave the forum Glen.
As ski says this kind of thing happens in all forums of all subjects. The trick is to be able to rise above it rather than rising to the bait.
Most people reading your thread will see the overall balance of it and form their own opinions.
They will also make up their own minds as to the accuracy and validity of various posts within the thread. Also they will not just read your thread but all of the others which again serve to educate them as to what is right and what is wrong both in the hobby and in general forum etiquette.
There will always be personality clashes fueled by erroneous posts but again, just take a deep breath and answer such posts in a polite or even jovial manner.
Though you don't know it, many people would have benefitted from your threads and you have even proved the point that using tap water in a fish only system does not automatically sound the death bell in a marine tank.
If you can bring yourself to it, put the sourness behind you and look forward to seeing your new marine environment develop.
A quick note to Orange Shark.
I know it's easy to get emotional but it's worth thinking about how destructive emotive posts can be. If you have an opinion that contradicts someone else's then you have every right to voice it.
However the way you voice your opinion will go a long way to influence the way people will act/react to it. People are much more likely to sit up and take notice if you meter your post with reason and clarity. If you are saying something in a lighthearted way then using an emoticon will put that point across very easily as quite often this sort of thing can come across as flippant or sarcastic or worse.
To all, always think about what you are going to post and don't post in anger. Walk away, think carefully about your response and defuse any potentially flammable situation. That shows maturity.
Sermon over
As ski says this kind of thing happens in all forums of all subjects. The trick is to be able to rise above it rather than rising to the bait.
Most people reading your thread will see the overall balance of it and form their own opinions.
They will also make up their own minds as to the accuracy and validity of various posts within the thread. Also they will not just read your thread but all of the others which again serve to educate them as to what is right and what is wrong both in the hobby and in general forum etiquette.
There will always be personality clashes fueled by erroneous posts but again, just take a deep breath and answer such posts in a polite or even jovial manner.
Though you don't know it, many people would have benefitted from your threads and you have even proved the point that using tap water in a fish only system does not automatically sound the death bell in a marine tank.
If you can bring yourself to it, put the sourness behind you and look forward to seeing your new marine environment develop.
A quick note to Orange Shark.
I know it's easy to get emotional but it's worth thinking about how destructive emotive posts can be. If you have an opinion that contradicts someone else's then you have every right to voice it.
However the way you voice your opinion will go a long way to influence the way people will act/react to it. People are much more likely to sit up and take notice if you meter your post with reason and clarity. If you are saying something in a lighthearted way then using an emoticon will put that point across very easily as quite often this sort of thing can come across as flippant or sarcastic or worse.
To all, always think about what you are going to post and don't post in anger. Walk away, think carefully about your response and defuse any potentially flammable situation. That shows maturity.
Sermon over
ben1987
Fish Aficionado
come on we need some pics of the new fish.
and dont leave, we all want to see your tank do well you know
and dont leave, we all want to see your tank do well you know
orange shark
Fish Herder
ok glen,
i apologise, i didnt mean to come across sarcastic or arragant ect. but i was merely pointing out something while i was in a rush and i meant no harm
the reason it took me a week to reply is because i was on holiday and i was at an internet cafe.
please dont stop using the forums because of me.
i apologise, i didnt mean to come across sarcastic or arragant ect. but i was merely pointing out something while i was in a rush and i meant no harm
the reason it took me a week to reply is because i was on holiday and i was at an internet cafe.
please dont stop using the forums because of me.
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
This did get a bit silly,Apolagy accepted and i apolagise myself.
Anyway alot has happened since i was here last.
I now own a 125 Litre reef tank,i lost one of my clowns in my old tank mainly due to extreme bullying from the other clown (the one who had the fungal infection)...other than that i cant see any other explanation
I now have 17kg of Live Rock,20 kg of Live sand (somebody gave me a extra 10kg) i plan to add another 10kg of live rock to complete my aquascape.
I still havent added any more fish,i still have just my yellow tail blue damsel and my clown fish along with 9 hermits,2 turbo snails and 1 mystery true crab which i am keeping a close eye on...around 5000 zoas and small feather dusters.....and a ever returning aiptasia that im not to fussed about yet.
I'm in need of some stocking ideas
This is my new plan after i finish my aquascape
My stock
Ocellaris Clown
Yellow tail Blue Damsel
9 blue legged hermits
2 turbo snails
Some weird freebie Clam that came on the rock
a freebie mystery crab
Zoas
Small feather dusters
I want to add..
Royal Gramma
Yellow Watchman Goby
Yellow Clown Goby
Pistol Shrimp -dubious-
Fire Shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
Emerald Crab
Some kind of star fish
1 extra large Feather duster or coco worm
2 more medium size fish maybe a coral beauty angel and a yellow tang? i like flame angles but they are extremely expensive.
How does this sound?
I don't want to keep Blennys,Dragonets,Firefish,any other damsel,nothing big,poisonousness or overly delicate
Could you give me some stocking suggestions?
Anyway alot has happened since i was here last.
I now own a 125 Litre reef tank,i lost one of my clowns in my old tank mainly due to extreme bullying from the other clown (the one who had the fungal infection)...other than that i cant see any other explanation
I now have 17kg of Live Rock,20 kg of Live sand (somebody gave me a extra 10kg) i plan to add another 10kg of live rock to complete my aquascape.
I still havent added any more fish,i still have just my yellow tail blue damsel and my clown fish along with 9 hermits,2 turbo snails and 1 mystery true crab which i am keeping a close eye on...around 5000 zoas and small feather dusters.....and a ever returning aiptasia that im not to fussed about yet.
I'm in need of some stocking ideas
This is my new plan after i finish my aquascape
My stock
Ocellaris Clown
Yellow tail Blue Damsel
9 blue legged hermits
2 turbo snails
Some weird freebie Clam that came on the rock
a freebie mystery crab
Zoas
Small feather dusters
I want to add..
Royal Gramma
Yellow Watchman Goby
Yellow Clown Goby
Pistol Shrimp -dubious-
Fire Shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
Emerald Crab
Some kind of star fish
1 extra large Feather duster or coco worm
2 more medium size fish maybe a coral beauty angel and a yellow tang? i like flame angles but they are extremely expensive.
How does this sound?
I don't want to keep Blennys,Dragonets,Firefish,any other damsel,nothing big,poisonousness or overly delicate
Could you give me some stocking suggestions?
ben1987
Fish Aficionado
tank is too small for a tang unfortunatley. Looked at some of the smaller reef safe wrasse?
get some pics up of the new tank!
good to see you back
get some pics up of the new tank!
good to see you back
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
Cheers Ben,yeh i'll take some soon,whats a good medium sized fish i want something Tang sized in there
ben1987
Fish Aficionado
thing with tangs is the amount they swim not the actual size of the fish.
what about something like these?
http
/www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_di...amp;pcatid=1409
http/www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_di...amp;pcatid=2648
what about something like these?
http
/www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_di...amp;pcatid=1409http
/www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_di...amp;pcatid=2648
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
Hmm not really tempted by them,thanks for your suggestion tho!
I want something that's kinda whole coloured,bright and maybe 'Discus' shape.
Do you recommend any Angels? I want something around 6 to 8" which is reef safe,clown safe! and will be happy in a tank my size.
I want something that's kinda whole coloured,bright and maybe 'Discus' shape.
Do you recommend any Angels? I want something around 6 to 8" which is reef safe,clown safe! and will be happy in a tank my size.
ben1987
Fish Aficionado
dont think you will get anything that big in it tbh.
an angel would be nice if you dont plan on too many corals
an angel would be nice if you dont plan on too many corals
OP
OP
GShorty1981
Fish Herder
Heres some tank photos
my mystery crab
Just added another 3kg to my tank taking it to 20kg of LR along with my 4" deep 20 kg sand bed,gonna buy another 6-8 KG of LR next week.
My other Ocellaris died last night which sucks...obviously didnt like the change over much so i'm deffo not gonna add another fish until i add the last to my aquascape.
So now all i have is one tiny Yellow tail blue a freebie mystery crab,2 freebie clams and 9 hermits in my tank! lol (plus my corals)
I'm looking at
Fish Stock
2 x Clowns (possibley Clarkiis or just Ocellaris)
1 x Yellow Tail Blue (already have)
1 x Royal Gramma
1 x Bangaii Cardinal (a big maybe...may get something a bit brighter)
1 x Goby
1 x larger fish,dwarf Angels are nice but i dont want to spend £50 and upwards for a small fish.
Inverts
1 x Peppermint shrimp (may get a few of these cos they breed well)
1 x cleaner shrimp
1 x fire shrimp
12 x hermit crabs (mixed reds and blues already have 9)
1 x mystery crab (which i am watching very closely)
1 x small star fish (after alot of study! dont know anything about these yet and i dont like brittle stars only the brighter ones)
2 x Turbo snails (already have,may get some more..but is there asy point,i'm not a fan)
1 x Emerald Crab
May one day try a Anenome but more than likely not.
couple of questions...
Since my tank is bigger than your normal nano and is bordering a normal reef tank,if i added a Humbug (which i really like) would i have the mad territory problems you get with nanos with Humbug Damsels?
Would Clarkii clowns be ok in my tank as a tougher alternative to Ocellaris (i'm not interested in Perculas as i think they dont look as nice as Ocellaris and they are weaker fish that all 3 of my local marine selling shops dont stock) (also not a fan of Tomatos,Maroons and Skunks)
Would a Royal Gramma kill a goby? people have said they would.
I scrapped the idea of a pistol shrimp in my plan after i read it will hunt and kill all of my other inverts so instead i'm gonna get a Cleaner Shrimp to go with the fire and Peppermint.
my mystery crab
Just added another 3kg to my tank taking it to 20kg of LR along with my 4" deep 20 kg sand bed,gonna buy another 6-8 KG of LR next week.
My other Ocellaris died last night which sucks...obviously didnt like the change over much so i'm deffo not gonna add another fish until i add the last to my aquascape.
So now all i have is one tiny Yellow tail blue a freebie mystery crab,2 freebie clams and 9 hermits in my tank! lol (plus my corals)
I'm looking at
Fish Stock
2 x Clowns (possibley Clarkiis or just Ocellaris)
1 x Yellow Tail Blue (already have)
1 x Royal Gramma
1 x Bangaii Cardinal (a big maybe...may get something a bit brighter)
1 x Goby
1 x larger fish,dwarf Angels are nice but i dont want to spend £50 and upwards for a small fish.
Inverts
1 x Peppermint shrimp (may get a few of these cos they breed well)
1 x cleaner shrimp
1 x fire shrimp
12 x hermit crabs (mixed reds and blues already have 9)
1 x mystery crab (which i am watching very closely)
1 x small star fish (after alot of study! dont know anything about these yet and i dont like brittle stars only the brighter ones)
2 x Turbo snails (already have,may get some more..but is there asy point,i'm not a fan)
1 x Emerald Crab
May one day try a Anenome but more than likely not.
couple of questions...
Since my tank is bigger than your normal nano and is bordering a normal reef tank,if i added a Humbug (which i really like) would i have the mad territory problems you get with nanos with Humbug Damsels?
Would Clarkii clowns be ok in my tank as a tougher alternative to Ocellaris (i'm not interested in Perculas as i think they dont look as nice as Ocellaris and they are weaker fish that all 3 of my local marine selling shops dont stock) (also not a fan of Tomatos,Maroons and Skunks)
Would a Royal Gramma kill a goby? people have said they would.
I scrapped the idea of a pistol shrimp in my plan after i read it will hunt and kill all of my other inverts so instead i'm gonna get a Cleaner Shrimp to go with the fire and Peppermint.
ben1987
Fish Aficionado
wow nice tank, big step up. I personally wouldnt add another damsel.
Cardinals are nice but they dont do much, bit boring imo
Cardinals are nice but they dont do much, bit boring imo
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