Think I'm Finally Getting My Hastatus!

[lljdma06]

Sorry for your loss, Miss Wiggle, that's aweful.

Many planted tanks that have CO2 injection can experience intense pH swings if you simply increase the surface agitation, or even just stir up the water with your hand. When I was testing for CO2 levels, I had to be sure that my pH sample was collected very carefully, so I wouldn't alter the sample. Horst Linke in his book on labyrinth fishes discusses several instances where fish were collected in very low pH (4.5) only to have the pH rise to near neutral after the fish were collected. This, again, may be due to the rapid increase in gas exchange due to either increased agitation or the water's increased exposure to air.

When I first read the acclimation method used by Bryan, I almost flipped. It completely went against what I thought was the proper way to acclimate fish. I followed the recommendations, however, and to my surprise, my C. pulcher are fine. Now, bear in mind that Wellington, FL and Miami, FL are a short hop from each other, and the water quality is essentially the same, so dramatically different water qualities may not be an issue, but it actually makes me rethink the way I had been doing things.

llj

 

[jollysue]

I'm not a hop away. I'm a continent away--a big continent--in a desert valley with depleting underground water. ICEEGRL is in the boonies of Louisiana, almost a continent from me. We are in the States, but it is surely bigger and more diverse than England. I imagine that that same method is what Bryan uses when he recieves newly delivered wild caught fish from S. America. Believe me when I say that Bryan will not use a method that will cost him money by losing his stock. He is not only a dedicated fish hobbyist, but also a businessman. Even his detracters would agree with that. lol

I am so amazed and grateful for this method that I just want to share it with everyone. There is a bit of the evangelist in me.

 

[lljdma06]

I'm not a hop away. I'm a continent away--a big continent--in a desert valley with depleting underground water. ICEEGRL is in the boonies of Louisiana, almost a continent from me. We are in the States, but it is surely bigger and more diverse than England. I imagine that that same method is what Bryan uses when he recieves newly delivered wild caught fish from S. America. Believe me when I say that Bryan will not use a method that will cost him money by losing his stock. He is not only a dedicated fish hobbyist, but also a businessman. Even his detracters would agree with that. lol

I am so amazed and grateful for this method that I just want to share it with everyone. There is a bit of the evangelist in me.

Oh, CA isn't that far away. You're right, though, with this method, even people nearly a continent away can possibly avoid acclimation problems.

It's certainly something to share and am actually glad you brought up Bryan's method. It warrants good discussion, though I do apologize to Miss Wiggle for the hijack. I'm glad I received that explanation prior to receiving the fish. I was actually wondering how I was going to get the C. pulcher out of the bag. They are very big, wouldn't want to get stuck by those pectoral fins and sharp dorsal rays! The cories I had in the past weren't nearly as intimidating.

To clear-up what I said before about the Linke book, the fish who experienced the pH swings during the collections showed no adverse effects, and mine certainly show no ill effects when I effect the pH during a water change. I often drive off CO2 and probably drive up the pH when I prune, pour water in, shift things around, etc because of the extra surface agitation.

Every LFS I've been to, and a lot of literature advocates adding water from the aquarium to the bag and then netting as part of the appropriate steps to acclimation. It really does make you wonder.

A while back, adding nitrates to a planted aquarium was frowned upon. Now, it's expected in high-tech tanks. The point is, what may have seemed incorrect in the past may now have it's purpose. At least people still agree that adding the bag water to the aquarium water is bad.

It is late, however, and I must go to bed before I stop making sense altogether.

I hope the rest of your C. hastatus do better, Miss Wiggle.

llj

 

[Miss Wiggle]

thanks, i've started a topic in the general forum about acclimitisation methods, see what other people think. i'm always willing to listen to new ways. i'm giving the tank a couple of weeks to settle down, check there's no serious issues then put in an order for some more along with some other bits and bobs we want. i may try this method, not quite sure yet.

the thing about pH swings that gets my goat a bit is when people say 'there's no such thing as pH shock' there quite clearly is. It just depends on the fish and how big the pH change is. What's the bigger risk, pH shock or ammonia burn? depends on any number of factors really IMHO.

 

[jollysue]

I am not a chemist or any thing. I don't pretend to be into hard science, but I understood the process of the ammonia changing to the more damaging one happens when the bag is opened, the carbon dioxide escapes and the PH rises. So keeping the fish in the bag does not avoid sudden ph changes, it assures that they will be exposed to a sudden rise in ph as well as the damaging ammonia.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah i understand the theory behind it, i'm curious though if the science just works on paper or in real life. while these changes may be going on the effect may be so minimal it wouldn't have any impact.

yes the fish produce Co2 but do they really produce enough to bring the pH down to a point where ammonia is 'non-toxic'.

firstly ammonia is always toxic, even in tiny concentrations and in a low pH, it's significantly less toxic at a lower pH than a higher one but not quite non toxic. But that's semantics really.

obviously it's gonna depend on the fish in question, how much pxygen was in the air/water packed with them, how long they travelled etc etc, but just working on an average example would they really create enough to send the pH right down? I'm just not quite convinced.

 

[jollysue]

Well next time we will do water tests. I'm not sure how I can test it before the bags are opened, but we can test after they are opened. How long does it take an unfiltered tank to show ammonia? Compare that to a few cups of water as opposed to gallons. Of course comparing five hastatus to six 2" Cories.... lol

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Well next time we will do water tests. I'm not sure how I can test it before the bags are opened, but we can test after they are opened. How long does it take an unfiltered tank to show ammonia? Compare that to a few cups of water as opposed to gallons. Of course comparing five hastatus to six 2" Cories.... lol

you know you can get those ammonia alarm's you stick in your tank, wonder if the readings would change with the same concentration of ammonia in a different pH water, i.e measure the toxicity as opposed to the actual level? unlikely but if they do you could pack one in the bag with the fish and then get a reading before opening the bag and watch it after the bag is opened.

regardless i don't think this is what's happened with my hastys, they were 3 to a bag with a generous amount of water, soo teeny i can't imagine they would produce a big amount of waste, a bigger group or bigger fish could obiously create much more and make it a stronger possibility.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

just FYI i don't think the science behind this holds up, for the fish to create enough Co2 to bring the pH down from (for example) a neutral 7 to 5 where the toxicity of ammonia can be considered relativley harmless (or for the toxicity of the ammonia to be significantly different to that of it at a pH of 7) the fish would need to produce enough Co2 to take the level in the water up to 60ppm, this is enough to kill a fish outright. So if fish did produce enough Co2 to drop the pH level low enough then it'd be the least of our worries as we'd never be able to ship them.

more info here

 

[Glod]

Sorry to read about your hastatus Miss W. Having been after some myself I know you must be dissapointed having finally found some.

As for the cause of death I've had similar experiences with my C.Pygmaeus and Aspidoras pauciradiatus i.e. mysterious deaths for no apparent reason. Both groups were purchased as 6s, I lost 1 of each on the first night, and a second pygmaeus after about a week. In both cases everything I can test checked out fine. Now, 6 months later all the remainig ones are thriving.

I've heard that some fish are just hard to acclimatise, but once they have they're as hardy as any other. Maybe dwarf corys are the same ?

 

[jollysue]

I am inclined to compare them to otos.

 

[Glod]

Strangely that same tank has 2 Otos. I bought them expecting them not to survive but they are active, chubby and entertaining little fish which dwarf my cories!

 

[jollysue]

just FYI i don't think the science behind this holds up, for the fish to create enough Co2 to bring the pH down from (for example) a neutral 7 to 5 where the toxicity of ammonia can be considered relativley harmless (or for the toxicity of the ammonia to be significantly different to that of it at a pH of 7) the fish would need to produce enough Co2 to take the level in the water up to 60ppm, this is enough to kill a fish outright. So if fish did produce enough Co2 to drop the pH level low enough then it'd be the least of our worries as we'd never be able to ship them.

more info here

Having read the thread I do not find it conclusive at all or to address all of the issues involved in shipping long distances. Much of it is contradictory. One says there is CO2 buildup to change ph and another says enough CO2 buildup to change ph would kill the fish...?

Yes, Glod, my analogy is not precise. lol Glad your otos did well.

I got 25 pygmies. It took awhile but they all slowly died. Two actually survived a long time in a frontie tank. (They got left behind when the tank was changed over to hold the fronties.) The same thing happened when I bought 25 otos; they died off over a long period of time. Both groups actually did acclimate well, only losing 1 or 2 of each soon after acclimating them after shipping.

 

[Polardbear]

First, let me just say that I sympathize with you Miss_Wiggle. It's so sad to loose them like that after all the anticipation.

While the discussions regarding the different methods of acclimating fish have been interesting and thought provoking, there are plenty of other factors that could have caused the loss of the little guys. I wouldn't neccesarily blame their deaths on not properly acclimating them.

You really don't know what condition they were in prior to shipping, how long they had been at Trimar, were they eating while at Trimar, if Trimar had experienced any die offs in the group, plus any number of things could have happened to them while in transit that could have significantly stressed them out. It sounds like they were well packaged but you can't always tell if the box was roughly handled/dropped/shaken/overheated/chilled.

Were they tank raised or wild caught? How were they handled prior to being shipped to Trimar?

My point is, there are so many possibilities that could have contributed to them dying that I wouldn't even worry about how they were acclimated. You did the best you could do, sometimes it just doesn't work out and we loose them.

 

[jollysue]

Just in case I wasn't clear: I did not mean to insinuate that Miss Wiggles had acclimated them improperly. It was not my intention at all, just my thoughtlessly bad timing to share something, while not new, was new to me.

I'm sorry, Miss Wiggles, if I added to your distress at all.

Hugs