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The Natural Aquarium

I mean, a lot of us have strong opinions about fish keeping. And to some degree, some of those strong opinions are backed by science. But then you get into areas that are more subjective and not so clear cut. Problem is that this turns into confirmation bias. People only accept what conforms to their pre existing beliefs and reject anything that doesn't.
My opinion is that we cannot recreate a natural environment. It's way bigger of a concept than anyone claims to know. You'd need to have an extreme vast knowledge of microbiology (bacteria relationships, viral, fungal, other pathogens and their whole ecosystem web), and nature isn't a closed system. Even puddles are deceptive--puddles often only form because the ground is already full of water and the water table is involved, etc. There is way more water volume involved and way more other factors at play.

I myself do 75-90% water changes every week. Why? Because it isn't just nitrate in our water. It's also pheromones, pathogens, bacteria, etc. We don't have tests for those, so we have no way of knowing how high the levels get inside a sealed glass box. It makes sense to remove as much as you can to keep those levels lower.

"but the fish develop immunity to those pathogen build ups!"
Yes, and no. It's not feasible longterm. You buy new fish, or perhaps something happens and you have to rehome your fish. The new fish added into your environment did not develop immunity to the skyrocketing pathogen levels, so often new fish's immune system gets overwhelmed and they're already compromised from stress to new environment. They are way more likely to fall ill. And on the other hand, your fish who have built immunity can be carriers to a lot of nasty pathogens and transfer those to other people who introduce them to their tanks, and boom disease outbreak (why it's recommended to quarantine, but not everyone does it).

Pheromones can impact growth of fish, especially juveniles. It's why breeders advocate for massive water change schedules. They grow faster with water changes.

Pathogen build up may create an immunity to the localized fish, but the moment an outside stresser happens (power outage causes temperatures to fluctuate, or lack of water flow, or perhaps a fish becomes a bully, or something changes in their environment outside of your control, etc), they become compromised and suddenly are weakened and you now have a disease outbreak "out of nowhere" which spreads fast because the high levels of that pathogen don't need much to take over.



That being said, if someone is changing even a little of their water, it's better than not at all.

And I disagree with completely silencing other people's advice. I don't have to agree with someone, but only allowing one sort of advice can walk a potentially dangerous line.

Am I gonna lose my mind over someone not using fertilizer? Nah. Am I gonna lose my mind over someone who likes one brand of food that I truly hate? Nah. Am I gonna be mad if someone only changes 25% instead of 50%? Nah, at least they're changing something.

There's many ways to do this hobby, but there are ways that are also potentially dangerous to others outside of your own care, or even ways that could potentially backfire hard on you. I'd personally set someone up for easier success than set them on the "easy no maintenance" path that's not going to last longterm or can backfire really bad for them quick.
 
Sounds to me like Father Fish's place is a very specialized, heavily controlled forum about a very specialized approach, and they don't want to hear about other stuff. I'm OK with that, even though I don't fully agree with that approach.

I'm a member of a primitive archery forum, and they don't want people discussing compound and fiberglass bows; somebody who insists on doing so will probably end up kicked out of the forum. It isn't that high-tech bows don't exist or aren't valid; it just isn't what that particular forum is about. Specialized forums make for limited topics.

It also seems, based on the quotes Casscats posted, that Father Fish is an extreme control freak. :lol: That's his prerogative on his own forum, just like it's the prerogative of the admins here to make rules--It's a free country and a free internet. Thankfully, it is also my choice not to visit his forum, nor to encourage anyone else to do so.
 
Sounds to me like Father Fish's place is a very specialized, heavily controlled forum about a very specialized approach, and they don't want to hear about other stuff. I'm OK with that, even though I don't fully agree with that approach.

I'm a member of a primitive archery forum, and they don't want people discussing compound and fiberglass bows; somebody who insists on doing so will probably end up kicked out of the forum. It isn't that high-tech bows don't exist or aren't valid; it just isn't what that particular forum is about. Specialized forums make for limited topics.

It also seems, based on the quotes Casscats posted, that Father Fish is an extreme control freak. :lol: That's his prerogative on his own forum, just like it's the prerogative of the admins here to make rules--It's a free country and a free internet. Thankfully, it is also my choice not to visit his forum, nor to encourage anyone else to do so.
Yep. That's just it, the freedom of being able to join or not, but people should also be very aware. Specialty or not, it's a little controlling to not allow "unapproved" people to give advice even if it's not on father fish stuff. One thing to open a server and want it to stay on topic, but it's another to dictate who can help others or not.
 
When I was a practicing neuroscientist at a high ranking academic institution we use to joke that it was much easier to get information out of Harvard than it was to get information into Harvard. Some folks think they know it all. C’est la vie.
 
Having walked through MIT and Harvard campus (just about once a week for 20 years); i can say with authority that Harvard has a nicer campus.
 
I hadn't seen that approval system for posters on the man's site. But as @WhistlingBadger stated, it's his site. A privately owned site is only as free as its owners want it to be, and there are no public sites...
Here, you can say what you want about fishkeeping, and may have community members disagreeing with you. As long as they follow the basic guidelines for polite discussion, it seems to go. As a mod, I have no instructions to limit who talks, unless they've earned a ban by not respecting other members, spamming, turning into politicians, etc. I've read plans for 'balanced aquariums' here, as well as ideas for some spectacularly unbalanced ones.
Maybe we need a Mother Fish.
And a third Uncle twice removed Fish.
There are days I feel like a Coelecanth.
 
I hadn't seen that approval system for posters on the man's site. But as @WhistlingBadger stated, it's his site. A privately owned site is only as free as its owners want it to be, and there are no public sites...
Here, you can say what you want about fishkeeping, and may have community members disagreeing with you. As long as they follow the basic guidelines for polite discussion, it seems to go. As a mod, I have no instructions to limit who talks, unless they've earned a ban by not respecting other members, spamming, turning into politicians, etc. I've read plans for 'balanced aquariums' here, as well as ideas for some spectacularly unbalanced ones.
Maybe we need a Mother Fish.
And a third Uncle twice removed Fish.
There are days I feel like a Coelecanth.
Can I be Awkwardly, Intensely Political Grandpa Fish?
 
Can I be Awkwardly, Intensely Political Grandpa Fish?
AIPGFing is not prohibited, as long as you're awkward. We're supposed to be be tropical fish nerds, after all.

Eventually, someone will pass by a tank and the fish will be acting up while an Oto that looks like the late Jerry Springer will be waving an envelope saying "he's not the father!"
 
Sounds to me like Father Fish's place is a very specialized, heavily controlled forum about a very specialized approach, and they don't want to hear about other stuff. I'm OK with that, even though I don't fully agree with that approach.

I'm a member of a primitive archery forum, and they don't want people discussing compound and fiberglass bows; somebody who insists on doing so will probably end up kicked out of the forum. It isn't that high-tech bows don't exist or aren't valid; it just isn't what that particular forum is about. Specialized forums make for limited topics.

It also seems, based on the quotes Casscats posted, that Father Fish is an extreme control freak. :lol: That's his prerogative on his own forum, just like it's the prerogative of the admins here to make rules--It's a free country and a free internet. Thankfully, it is also my choice not to visit his forum, nor to encourage anyone else to do so.
That's true. But personally, I'm not interested in dogma. I want to hear other opinions. I get that they want to specialize in a particular method. But that's not for me.
I saw a comedian who talked about how people now scoff at "do your own research". He was like, "We used to call that 'reading'". Fish keeping is research intensive. That's part of the fun. I like reading different ideas on fish keeping and seeing if I can figure out what works best. The needs of the fish come first but that has to be balanced out by my ability to provide those needs. It should be like that for every pet. If I lived in a small efficiency apartment, I wouldn't own 5 cats. But even within that philosophy, there's a wide range of ideas. I just don't want to fall into the trap of convincing myself that what's easiest for me is best even if it's not good for the fish.
 
I decided to leave the FF discord chat as there is a number of elements on the natural aquarium i dont really agree with and i am no longer interested in going that route for my tanks.
 

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