The Natural Aquarium

[emeraldking]

I don't do real water changes in my paludarium. Wild guppies are swimming in there. It contains rocks, swamp plants and no mechanical filtration. I only add some water every two months. What evaporates, hits the glass, plants and rocks and eventually ends up back in the water. The water is always clear. Those guppies are healthy and reproduce massively.

 

[GaryE]

@emeraldking
In Libreville Gabon, we watched feral guppies in the 6 inch wide, shallow open cement drain of a gas station. People were doing water changes by washing vehicles. The guppies were swimming in and out of a potato chip bag (salt tolerance?). They had candy wrappers galore. One that my friend picked up in his hand was a very gravid female. Guppies that start out healthy are tough as nails. I suspect I could make my recycling box into a biotope.

 

[emeraldking]

(salt tolerance?

Guppies are salt tolerant to a certain degree when we speak about large finned guppies. Short finned guppies are more salt tolerant.

Well, in free nature guppies are very btolerant when it comes to water parameters. They even thrive well in dirted water in free nature. And in certain countries even in sewers without any problems.

 

[Oldspartan]

@emeraldking
In Libreville Gabon, we watched feral guppies in the 6 inch wide, shallow open cement drain of a gas station. People were doing water changes by washing vehicles. The guppies were swimming in and out of a potato chip bag (salt tolerance?). They had candy wrappers galore. One that my friend picked up in his hand was a very gravid female. Guppies that start out healthy are tough as nails. I suspect I could make my recycling box into a biotope.

As the good Dr. in Jurassic Parc said …. Life finds a way.

 

[BigBurgassio]

Has anyone ventured on the Father Fish discord ?

 

[GaryE]

If you go back to the start of the thread, that fine old Guru inspired the thread. It's clear he and I and many others were aquarists in the same period - the 1970s, and he stuck to his guns on the balanced aquarium myth. I was there, tried that and moved on.

He has added dirt for where the old timers counted on mulm, but he has kept the ancient faith. And it's appealing - the need to actually take care of tanks is a big time hobby killer. No one ever became poor selling people what they want to hear.

Like most systems, his works to a degree. I think it fails if you put the fish before the convenience, but for a select choice of fish kept 50 years ago as well, it's good. What killed the balanced aquarium back in the day was the arrival of new fish in the hobby - diverse fish from diverse habitats with diverse needs. Once you develop an interest in watching fish behaviour, balanced tanks show their tilted nature. Very very few fish live in habitats that look like his tanks must to work. For those that do, it works.

Here's a thought. The growth of the large chains and the crushing of small Mom and Pop local stores has created near monopolies, and the dominant companies only sell a very limited range of fish. Our fish choices may be falling back to what they were in 1970, if you ignore the very few specialty sellers. So maybe the "balanced" aquarium will have legs, as the hobby shrinks back to a few dozen easy to keep species...

 

[BigBurgassio]

The whole natural aquarium thing threw me a bit when i first started watching his videos as you get the feeling you have been doing it wrong and everything you followed was not how it should be done, I sort of feel different to it now and will continue to follow the guidance on this site and do water changes, check parameters etc., what i found is that when you do get involved with the FF discord and social media they don't want to hear anything other than their methods, which i find a bit off putting

 

[AJ356]

With Father Fish, I like watching his stuff, as I also find it very relaxing and visually appealing. However, he will come up with some head scratching advice. For example, I've often heard him say that when setting up a new tank, to leave the lights on for 2 weeks non stop, 24 hours a day, and that's with new fish in the tank.

 

[gwand]

Anyone on a crusade is suspect until proven otherwise. Unwavering dogmatic advice is usually wrong. I listened to one of his utube talks. My take away was that his model would only work for a small variety of fish. I don’t think his theory can be extrapolated to the general community of fish. And personally I don’t mind performing water exchanges and taking an active role in maintaining the well being of my fish.

 

[GaryE]

There's a broad community of fish people at all levels of education and experience. What they share is commitment and curiosity. We try things. many of which work. We adjust and adapt when they don't. Sometimes, we even listen to each other. We don't have rigid systems, be it no water changes or massive water changes alone, out of context. You learn to look at the fish species you like, learn how they live in nature, listen to a wide range of hobbyist experience and come up with the most respectful (of their natural needs) system you can.

If your fish comes from flowing water, make the tank water move. If it doesn't don't. If it is from ultra soft, lower pH extreme habitats, try to meet its needs. I'd hold up the idea of evolutionary fishkeeping, in opposition to balanced aquariums. The aquarium is just a glass box you purchase - it can be run in many ways, and it isn't my focus. You purchase the fish too, but it has such a story, and so many elements have worked on its natural history. That can be some reading and digging online, and if you don't like studying a bit, buy into a system. Someone will sell you one.

I'm sure somewhere out there there's a guy named Joe Fish who joined the priesthood and is ticked at this other Father Fish dude hijacking his title.

I try to beware of dogmas, people who say they are experts, and those who get angry when countered. I used to debate online with some of the balanced aquarium people, and most didn't like the fact I had grown up in the balanced aquarium view, as a member of an old school 3 generation fishkeeping family. No believer likes an apostate! But what struck me is that if you offered four or five thought out questions, they would only try to answer the questions that fit their view. If your question wasn't covered by their system, it didn't exist.

That, to me, is a bad sign.

I will soon have had aquariums and fish for 58 years. I've seen some fads. I've fallen for a few. I've met some experts - the ones who made the fish we love the subject of their trained study. When I talk with Ichthyologists, whose training is grounded in the scientific method, I get a different level of intensity compared to my friends who, like me, have studied fish but have done other things to make a living.

The only fish videos I watch on youtube with any regularity are ones shot in nature, ideally underwater. Nature is the teacher that keeps this fun.

 

[BigBurgassio]

I try to beware of dogmas, people who say they are experts, and those who get angry when countered. I used to debate online with some of the balanced aquarium people, and most didn't like the fact I had grown up in the balanced aquarium view, as a member of an old school 3 generation fishkeeping family. No believer likes an apostate! But what struck me is that if you offered four or five thought out questions, they would only try to answer the questions that fit their view. If your question wasn't covered by their system, it didn't exist.

That's similar with what happened to me on their discords forum, one member told me if continued to question the FF methods i should leave and wouldn't be welcome, another blocked me because i posed a question about Root Tabs for an amazon sword, at that point i never realized how against ferts they were.

 

[sharkweek178]

There's a broad community of fish people at all levels of education and experience. What they share is commitment and curiosity. We try things. many of which work. We adjust and adapt when they don't. Sometimes, we even listen to each other. We don't have rigid systems, be it no water changes or massive water changes alone, out of context. You learn to look at the fish species you like, learn how they live in nature, listen to a wide range of hobbyist experience and come up with the most respectful (of their natural needs) system you can.

If your fish comes from flowing water, make the tank water move. If it doesn't don't. If it is from ultra soft, lower pH extreme habitats, try to meet its needs. I'd hold up the idea of evolutionary fishkeeping, in opposition to balanced aquariums. The aquarium is just a glass box you purchase - it can be run in many ways, and it isn't my focus. You purchase the fish too, but it has such a story, and so many elements have worked on its natural history. That can be some reading and digging online, and if you don't like studying a bit, buy into a system. Someone will sell you one.

I'm sure somewhere out there there's a guy named Joe Fish who joined the priesthood and is ticked at this other Father Fish dude hijacking his title.

I try to beware of dogmas, people who say they are experts, and those who get angry when countered. I used to debate online with some of the balanced aquarium people, and most didn't like the fact I had grown up in the balanced aquarium view, as a member of an old school 3 generation fishkeeping family. No believer likes an apostate! But what struck me is that if you offered four or five thought out questions, they would only try to answer the questions that fit their view. If your question wasn't covered by their system, it didn't exist.

That, to me, is a bad sign.

I will soon have had aquariums and fish for 58 years. I've seen some fads. I've fallen for a few. I've met some experts - the ones who made the fish we love the subject of their trained study. When I talk with Ichthyologists, whose training is grounded in the scientific method, I get a different level of intensity compared to my friends who, like me, have studied fish but have done other things to make a living.

The only fish videos I watch on youtube with any regularity are ones shot in nature, ideally underwater. Nature is the teacher that keeps this fun.

Dogma is the antithesis of science.

 

[CassCats]

Man, glad to see others who are sensible and reasonable.

Has anyone ventured on the Father Fish discord ?

It is a literal cult. You cannot give advice unless you set up a tank just like his and he personally "certifies you" with a special given role on there, you get in trouble or kicked out if you offer advice to anyone for anything even if it is irrelevant to his types of setups.



Several followers of his advocate purposely introducing parasites to the aquarium (dangerous as many followers are in countries where we are very restricted on medications and have very localized local groups that sell/trade fish amongst each other.

 

[sharkweek178]

Man, glad to see others who are sensible and reasonable.


It is a literal cult. You cannot give advice unless you set up a tank just like his and he personally "certifies you" with a special given role on there, you get in trouble or kicked out if you offer advice to anyone for anything even if it is irrelevant to his types of setups.



Several followers of his advocate purposely introducing parasites to the aquarium (dangerous as many followers are in countries where we are very restricted on medications and have very localized local groups that sell/trade fish amongst each other.

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I mean, a lot of us have strong opinions about fish keeping. And to some degree, some of those strong opinions are backed by science. But then you get into areas that are more subjective and not so clear cut. Problem is that this turns into confirmation bias. People only accept what conforms to their pre existing beliefs and reject anything that doesn't.

 

[gwand]

Sounds like they’ve taken a page out of the playbook of Scientology.