The Internet Hatred Of Fish-In Cycle?

It's not that UGF are being flamed, it's the fact that technology has improved on them. Gravel makes up your filter media when you use an UGF giving you a certain amount of surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize. Gravel does provide a good amount of surface area, but modern filter media provides more while taking up less space and at the same time ensuring that there is ample flow through it maximizing it's effect. UGF do the same when they are clean, but over time their efficiency drops due to all the solids that get trapped under the tray. This can result in "dead spots" and poor flow despite the use of powerheads. Water will flow with the path of least resistance. If one area of the UGF gets clogged, it reduces it's efficiency and the water will not flow through that area very well. This can be solved by the frequent and labor intensive task of tearing down the tank to clean under the UGF tray. No thanks, I'll rinse out my media to get the same effect.



Under Gravel filters can be excellent form of filtration with the addition of Powerheads capable of reverse flow.
In reverse flow, the water is pulled from the aquarium at mid depth, and forced down through the lift tube and then up through the gravel as opposed to pulling the water from below the lift tube.
Add a canister, or hang on the back filter, and water along with dissolved organics and solids forced up through the gravel in reverse flow ,,can be picked up and cleaned through the media in the canister or HOB filter.

Have used this method with large messy Cichlids and can assure you all that it works quite well.
Would agree that UGF is old school, but it can be very effective as mentioned above. :good:
 
Under Gravel filters can be excellent form of filtration with the addition of Powerheads capable of reverse flow.
In reverse flow, the water is pulled from the aquarium at mid depth, and forced down through the lift tube and then up through the gravel as opposed to pulling the water from below the lift tube.
Add a canister, or hang on the back filter, and water along with dissolved organics and solids forced up through the gravel in reverse flow ,,can be picked up and cleaned through the media in the canister or HOB filter.

Have used this method with large messy Cichlids and can assure you all that it works quite well.
Would agree that UGF is old school, but it can be very effective as mentioned above. :good:

Which brings up a new topic all together! A combination of different types of filtration can be very effective, I agree. Perhaps the best method is a combined system that takes advantage of the different strengths of different types of filtration. The only snag here is how far is the fish keeper willing to go as far as budget, maintenance, and tank real estate willing to go.

Which brings me back to the point of simplicity. How complicated of a system does it really take to keep fish successfully? In all honesty a single internal, UGF, or HOB type filter will do the job in most circumstances. There really is no need to have a complicated filtration system for the average aquatic husbandman. Sure 2 or even 3 different types of filter would be more efficient, but is a system like this absolutely vital? No.

The whole point to this is that there are many different types of filtration available, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. To coin an old adage, different strokes for different folks.
 
Under Gravel filters can be excellent form of filtration with the addition of Powerheads capable of reverse flow.
In reverse flow, the water is pulled from the aquarium at mid depth, and forced down through the lift tube and then up through the gravel as opposed to pulling the water from below the lift tube.
Add a canister, or hang on the back filter, and water along with dissolved organics and solids forced up through the gravel in reverse flow ,,can be picked up and cleaned through the media in the canister or HOB filter.

Have used this method with large messy Cichlids and can assure you all that it works quite well.
Would agree that UGF is old school, but it can be very effective as mentioned above. :good:

Which brings up a new topic all together! A combination of different types of filtration can be very effective, I agree. Perhaps the best method is a combined system that takes advantage of the different strengths of different types of filtration. The only snag here is how far is the fish keeper willing to go as far as budget, maintenance, and tank real estate willing to go.

Which brings me back to the point of simplicity. How complicated of a system does it really take to keep fish successfully? In all honesty a single internal, UGF, or HOB type filter will do the job in most circumstances. There really is no need to have a complicated filtration system for the average aquatic husbandman. Sure 2 or even 3 different types of filter would be more efficient, but is a system like this absolutely vital? No.

The whole point to this is that there are many different types of filtration available, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. To coin an old adage, different strokes for different folks.


I agree completely, I only took issue with your statement that modern filters are more effective.
The variation on the UGF I described is not complicated, and is much more efficient in it's application.Effiency, combined with relatively low cost as compared to some forms of filtration is often desireable for some.
As for original topic, Fish in or fishless cycle, Fishless is clearly the way for the majority but it is not to say that Fish in cannot be used with no toxic ammonia or nitrite levels,or even detectable levels,of toxins if done properly.
Daily water changes and testing with Fish in cycling, are only an issue when too many fish, too large of fish,and overfeeding of fish for particular volume of water take place.(often the norm)
Couple that with the lack of understanding of the nitrogen cycle,poor advice from others,and or inability to exercise the patience needed, and fishes are the ones that suffer.
Also to be considered are the throngs of folks that purchase fish without researching the fishes needs with respect to water parmeters (ie) pH,GH,KH,and Temperatures along with choosing suitable or unsuitable tankmates. This often results in sick or dead fish regardless of type of maturing or cycling process used.
You can in the afore mentioned instances perform fishless, or fish in cycling ,and results will be the same.
As I have mentioned,,Fishless cycling is clearly the way for new hobbyists. It gives them time to research the fishes that interest them and to hopefully select fish that will do well in the enviornment we attempt to create and there is absolutely no chance of fishes being harmed.
But as also mentioned,,if done properly,, fish in maturing or cycling, can be accomplished with zero harm to the fish. Requires very few,very small fish in proportion to the volume of water, and very sparse feeding of these few small fishes, with additional small fishes added at proper intervals and in number(s) to allow bacteria to continue to develop.
No daily testing,no frequent water changes,Just patience.
For the majority of new hobbyist's Patience is that which is most often in short supply.
 
For the majority of new hobbyist's Patience is that which is most often in short supply.

Hence why it's something to encourage. :lol:

To the OP, is there anyone imparticular you can think of that has demostrated this hatred? I don't want you to list names, I'm just interested in whether it's a feeling you get, or if you've seen specific people 'hating' fish-in cycles?

So far I think most people are in agreement on here, and IMO from being around the boards the opinion here mirrors that. Basically people advocate fishless cycling as it is tried and tested and will give many benefits to new keepers, and often gives clear health benefits to the fish.

But no one is trying to suggest fish-in cycling can't be done, or that it's the worst thing you could possibly do. But just that it requires (normally...) significanly more time and effort. And the end result of a cycled fully stocked tank is more often than not about the same as a fishless cycle.
 
I agree completely, I only took issue with your statement that modern filters are more effective.
The variation on the UGF I described is not complicated, and is much more efficient in it's application.Effiency, combined with relatively low cost as compared to some forms of filtration is often desireable for some.

Fair enough :) I do love a good discussion!

Ok, back on topic. In my opinion, a fish less cycle is the way to go. It's much less work than a fish in cycle and it's just as effective. Having said that, a fish in cycle isn't a bad thing as long as you do it properly. Almost everyone has good intentions when setting up and cycling their tank, but many times life gets in the way and the tank goes by the wayside. It's the same thing with a fish keeper buying an oscar to go in their 30 gallon tank with the good intention of buying a 75 gallon when the oscar outgrows the 30 gallon. The simple fact is that most of the time the oscar stays in the 30 gallon it's whole life due to unforeseen circumstances.

Fish in cycling takes dedication, hard work, and patience. Many new aquarists lack some of these these qualities initially.
 
Have we all read this?

www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=undergravelfilters


UGF is not outdated. just undersold by dealers - and you all fell for it!
 
Have we all read this?

www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=undergravelfilters


UGF is not outdated. just undersold by dealers - and you all fell for it!


Really, there was very little scientific information proving the writer's point in that article, in fact he speculates as to why UGF have fallen by the wayside. Some of the writers points may have been valid, but most are just feature observations. Some of the strengths the writer suggested can also be construed as weaknesses. Even some of the safety features mentioned can be easily achieved by a little common sense with modern filters.

It's like comparing propeller driven airplanes to jet powered airplanes. Both have their advantages and their place in aviation just as UGF and power filters have their place in aquaria. In the end it is up to the fish keeper to make their own informed decision as to what kind of filter to use. All we should do is point out the good and bad of any types of filter as each situation can have different needs.
 
Have we all read this?

www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=undergravelfilters


UGF is not outdated. just undersold by dealers - and you all fell for it!

Be careful who you lump in with "you all". Bare tanks running box & sponge filters beats UGF in price, cleanliness, and flexibility. Run enough air through a box filter & it matches a power filter. As far as that article I won't even get into tossing filter pads out or "sporning" fish.

Back on topic, a properly done traditional cycle with fish just takes more grunt work changing water. If you don't mind trading a bit of work for being able to see fish in the tank right away it's you doing the work, and you reaping the benefits of seeing fish. No matter what the filtration system, I'm surprised cloning hasn't been covered, I haven't had to cycle a tank in years. Just run spare filters, set up a tank & stock wisely.
 
I'm surprised cloning hasn't been covered, I haven't had to cycle a tank in years.

Pretty sure I mentioned it. But only in regards to seeding. Cloning takes far too long imo and is a bit hit and miss. As it requires some of your colony to move itself (by luck not by concious though lol) to the new media and there is no additional ammonia so you still end up with the same bacterial colony... therefore the second filter is often better seeded by simply cleaning the cycled one into a tank/bucket then cycling.

AlanTh - As kaivalagi said... sand, soil, very fine subsrates all cannot be used with UGFs. Many bottom dwellers and geophagus are much much better on soils and sands and as these are my favourite fish not only would I never bother with UGF due to maintenance and price vs ease of use. I physically couldn't as my tanks are built around the fish they'll hold. Not the other way round.
 
the cloning ive done is instant. for my sponge filters, i use all the media from an established, much larger canister filter. instant cycle. and since very little of the media had been removed from the canister, no dodgy stats in that tank. simply replace what i took out with new media.
and you should not be using 50% of established media when cloning/seeding a new filter. dont take more than 1/3 from an established filter. while its true that bacs grow logarithmically, the initial growth is slow (ie a lag period). so by saying the population replenishes itself in one "division" is not entirely accurate. but once the colonies do begin growing, generally it is rapid(once the lag period is done), but again the rate is very much dependent on the species and environment they are being grown in.
just my $0.02.
cheers.
 
The cloning I do is instant as well, as far as I can tell. I have spare sponge filters running in various tanks, depending on how heavily I stock a start up tank I may add one or a few. I'll feed that tank light for a week in most cases, and do a couple of water changes during the week.
 

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