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The Best Fish Forum

Erm...how?

Is that seriously the best reply you could come up with? Nothing to add?

Here is the entire sentence;


Now if we let people who havent paid to advertise and sell through the site to conduct their business free of charge then it hardly seems fair to those who have paid, in fact why should they pay at all if all they have to do is stick a link in their signature and send a few PMs to people about what stock they have?


You chopped a portion out of that sentence, and it means the opposite of what it was intended to mean.

I certainly could come up with a better reply, pica nuttalli posted a few good reasons why this doesn't need to be continued here.
 
The reason why I asked for it to be discussed here was because I felt people needed to be aware of the hypocrisy. It's ok to support the fish shops who are doing everything we complain about fish shops for doing (selling large fish as suitable for beginners, selling large fish as suitable for small communities, giving false information, using the wrong latin names), and yet someone who says in pm "please contact me off site" is banned for apparently advertising - well after his link was removed and he stopped using it.

I'm not btw doing this on his behalf, I've only bought fish off him and met him once when he delivered them. But it really stinks that someone setting out on a new venture doing things the right way is slapped on the wrist, and yet the ones doing it soooooo very wrong are given their own message board and banner.

I'm sure the mods are discussing it as we speak. Discussing whether they ban me for speaking out for someone. Discussing whether someone mentionning a shop in a thread - recommending them to someone - is enough to ban the member who runs the shop for. And saying "Well yeah, we're looking for an excuse, that'll do". Had someone bothered to ask whether any fish were actually sold on site, they'd know that wasn't the case. But sod it, it was good enough for you lot. Just like it was good enough that TF4U could advertise their unprofessional site, as long as some money changed hands. And who cares if the person dobbing him in was trying to sell fish in pm ("dont buy them from him - I can get them cheaper for you!") - he gets a pat on the back for it.

It's principal, I know who I'd rather promote. Incidentally, I'm not naming names for a reason - that being he's already got into enough trouble without me making more for him. I'm posting about it because the hypocrisy p*sses me off, not because he needs someone to speak for him. That's between you and him.

Just to add - I'm available via pm for anyone who wants to carry this on now. All I wanted to say was that while this site is undeniably one of my favourites, recent actions have made me question the motives of the folks who run it. And that does need discussing, but it also needs addressing publicly - as it's not doing any favours for the site promoting bad business, and I'm not the only one commenting about it.
 
Lisa, can you not see the other perspective in this? Can you not look at this from the companies who paid for their sponsorship's point of view? Those companies paid hard earned money to join an exclusive group of those who are allowed to advertise on here. If someone else was allowed to advertise for free, can you not see how they would wonder -- and with all good reason -- exactly what they paid for? If you owned a company and you paid for advertising and then some other company started using the exact same method for free, wouldn't you demand your money back? It is as simple as that. It is also as simple as every user agreed to abide by a set of rules when they joined (whether you read all the rules or not) and if you do not follow the rules, you will lose your privileges. Posting on a forum is not a right, it is a privilege given to you by the administrators. And the administrators have made it very clear, you break the rules, you will not be welcome here any more. I am not speaking for anyone besides myself, but if you don't like the rules as they are written and as they are being enforced, you are free to go start your own forum where you can write and enforce the rules any way you want.
 
Yes I can completely, but it was my understanding that the person I am talking about was banned once for having a link in his signature, then allowed to return - didnt put a link in his sig, and was banned again purely because people mentionned and recommended him on the boards and the admin jumped to the conclusion that he was conducting business on site, when in fact when I pm-ed to pester him - he asked me to take it off site as it was against the rules. And the fact that someone was reporting him as promoting his business was actually trying to get me to buy off him instead of the person concerned. When I said I didn't want to as I'd already booked ones from the other person - he never replied, and that person got reported AGAIN. You see?

It isn't the rules that bother me - it's the application of them.
 
Agreed. I know I am personally always looking for suggestions on how to improve as a moderator.

I haven't been on much at all, granted. My grandmother has been in and out of the hospital five times, in a coma, and now she is basically on her last leg. I'm her primary caretaker, so it's been hard. I still check in on the forum everyday, and especially the Livebearer section. However, I have not been posting much. I'm trying to get back into that again. I'll be back to bug you all again soon. :p

So sorry to hear about your grandmother. I know how hard these things are. Miss you, lots of hugs!

dwarfgourami
 
This one of the biggest myths in the hobby, and one that annoys me almost as much 'scale-less fish are allergic to salt' or 'Bettas don't like big tanks'.

I dont think its such a Myth. Many SW hobbyists end up moving to Salt Water from fresh. Its a natural progression for many. You start with something "Easy" and notice the SW sections more and more as you become more accustomed to Fish Keeping and life underwater. Budget also plays a role, as many younger teenagers/young adults have little to no income, but find work as they grow older, being able to afford marine. So I think the statement is correct (whilst you still have a point that not everyone does go FW), but you may have to think about it as not just a progression through the hobby, but availability, ability (easier with equipment you can afford), and knowledge.

I hope I got what I was thinking across! :lol:

In terms of conservation issues, 90% of the freshwater aquarium fish traded are captive bred, while virtually all marine aquarium fish and invertebrates are caught from the wild.

Those facts are misleading. Whilst 90% of FW species traded are captive bred, how many species does that represent? And in what quantity are they traded? Mollies, Guppies, Clown Loaches, Tetra's, Pleco's, Rasporas, Cichlids, Malawi's, etc (which are all very easy to breed using manipulating techniques, and even at home), this small list of species might represent a HUGE portion of the "90% of traded FW species captive bred". But what about marine? There are a far greater diversity of imported species, which cannot be manipulated into reproducing, their diet's cannot be replicated as such yet in home aquaria, technology available to the general hobbyist for breeding is extremely poor, life cycles are extreme in some cases, and profit is non-existent. There are clear differences, and whilst more could be done in regards to captive breeding of marine Fish and Invertebrates, efforts are being made, and progress is clearly evident, it is just alot more difficult in many regards, and a simple comparison between the two sides is always going to look misleading and in-accurate.

The problem with marine fishkeeping is that it is very, very expensive to do properly, whereas freshwater fishkeeping can be done far more inexpensively, especially when you consider things like goldfish.

Does that now open the door to much more abuse? I dont see the expense of SW an actual downside. As both an old FW hobbyist and now a SW hobbyist involved with a local marine club, on TFF for my transition both before and after, and being a frequent LFS stall wart, I have noticed a clear difference in the way many hobbyists from the two separate sides treat their individual specimens, and there are far more FW hobbyists willing to spend less money on something that just wont live (and they no it before they spend there money) than compared to many SW hobbyists who truly care about good quality fish/inverts (this is not to say there are not individuals who do/don't care on either side).

Increasingly, marine fishkeeping is suffering from an image problem: there is good evidence that in certain places (e.g. Philippines) and for certain species (e.g. mandarinfish and Banggai cardinals) over-collection has resulted in serious declines in natural populations.

Definitely true. Sustainable management and education is needed. Some countries do, some don't (often because they cant afford too, and the export of marine fish/inverts is a major contribution to their countries economy).

Even if you banned wild-caught freshwater fish outright, that would only affect 10% of the traded species and most casual aquarists would never even notice. If you banned wild-caught marines, the hobby would basically vanish.

It would, and as mentioned above, reasons exist for this. I do agree, more should be done to breed/propagate species in the marine aquarium industry. Im a firm believer more hobbyists could contribute from their home aquaria (without the need of specialized frag tanks or breeding set-ups) much like FW hobbyists (id love to have an opportunity to write something about this in PFK NMonks, Wink Wink! LOL Give me some tips to get noticed! :p ).

What I'd submit is that to marine aquarists it seems that their side of the hobby is the "natural evolution" of things. But that's often because marine aquarists don't explore the freshwater hobby in any great depth, so they get bored more quickly. They don't, for example, tend to be aquarists who enjoy breeding fish, which in my opinion is one of the very best aspects of the freshwater side of the hobby.

For some the marine environment is a passion, and FW will never excite them (im now completely bored of most FW aspects ((only FW planted tanks do it for me now)), because im thoroughly engrossed in SW) but I bred FW fish and I propagated and traded FW plants interstate. I also now have people requesting my coral and my macro-algae from interstate, so the same can be accomplished through the marine side. Many find the life forms available to keep in marine aquaria alot more exciting. Many find the species more unique/interesting.

IMO, you don't have to experience FW to enjoy SW. I don't think a majority believe turning to SW is an evolutionary step up, but I believe its just a gradual evolution towards something you might appreciate a greater deal with more money/time/space/knowledge etc.

Man that was about the longest post ive ever written! I hope I made some good counter arguements to give people something to think about). I was noticing no reply from the SW crew! :p
 
I also agree with you Neale that the marine hobby is hurting ecosystems. That's why I personally almost always buy aquacultured fish, corals, and inverts. I don't think fish collecting is the major reason for the impact, but coral collection.


Good call on buying Aquaculture specimens wherever you can AMS. :good: I do disagree though that Coral Collection is the only thing hurting the Ecosystem. Fish collection is more destructive than coral removal. You don't use Cyanide and Dynamite to remove coral, nor nets. The removal of coral removes a habitat for fish etc. to utilize, but thats not whats causing the added destruction. Its the use of chemicals and poor catching techniques. I thoroughly believe removing coral and fish sustainably can be accomplished with management and education.

Edit: and to keep on tract, TFF Rocks! :p
 
Hello Mr Miagi,

My argument is not that marine aquarists don't start off as freshwater aquarists (most probably do) but rather with the idea that freshwater aquarists must inevitably become marine aquarists (at least if they're any good).

The corollary to this argument is that marine fishkeeping is "more difficult" than freshwater fishkeeping, and therefore a better challenge for the advanced aquarist. I've kept marine tanks and I've kept freshwater tanks and both have their challenges. There's nothing "easy" about spawning egg-laying fish and rearing their young, and maintaining a basic reef tank is a heck of a lot easier (and arguably less expensive) than an Amano-style planted freshwater tank. Each side of the hobby has its own challenges and rewards.

What I have observed is that most of the marine aquarists I know went marine after keeping only community tropicals. Very few seem to have done any of the freshwater specialisations, like fish breeding or collecting certain taxonomic groups (e.g., dwarf cichlids or rare livebearers). I honestly believe that when marine aquarists say they find freshwater tanks boring, it's because they're comparing a reef tank to a community tank of barbs and danios <insert some boring freshwater fish>. That may be a fair point, but a reef tank better than a mudskipper vivarium? Or archerfish spitting down insects? Or a harem Apistogramma? Or pair of discus looking after their spawn with a wondrous level of care? I think not.

Cheers, Neale
 
I honestly believe that when marine aquarists say they find freshwater tanks boring, it's because they're comparing a reef tank to a community tanks of barbs and danios. That may be a fair point....
that is not a fair point!
a danio species tank is far from boring
especially if you have more than just ZDs :good:

Neil, I have respect for you but don't diss the danios :sly: :p
 
Oops! OK, I made the change.

You're right... it's the generic community fish I meant rather than the interesting stuff. I have two glowlight danios that systematically killed off the other four I bought them with and now spend all their time chasing one another and harassing the cardinal tetras. Danios are full of surprises! But to be honest I always liked giant danios. Very nice fish.

Cheers, Neale
 
Aaah, neale, once you have sampled frogfish and sharks and walking batfish, it takes great strength to walk back to FW.

As one who prefers the weirder and quirky (and prefrably predatory) side of the hobby, the SW side just holds so much more for me. not to mention the endless fun for one who enjoys DIY such as I.

And as to breeding, that is far harder in SW due to many fish having a planktonic larval stage, though there are some successes being reported in frogfish and I am casually tempted to have a little dabble.

However, I agree entirely with the undercurrent of your posts that it is all down to personal preferences and for some SW is very good, while others have no desire and prefer FW. There is no defined "career" path through which people will travel from community into SW.

Hell, no matter how often I try and convince CFC he stoutly refuses to step into SW...yet! :devil:
 
Hah! Am I allowed to mention I kept an Ogcocephalus in a marine aquarium for a while? And I tried to keep a pogge too, though it didn't do well in my coldwater tank (not cold enough). I've also kept brachiopods and mantis shrimps for research purposes.

So I've done the marine thing, and I'd happily set up a coldwater marine tank again if I was nearer the sea. I just happen to enjoy freshwater more, and brackish best of all. What I like about brackish is understanding how these fish can manage living in such a changeable environment, thriving in conditions that literally would kill marine/freshwater fish in minutes.

Cheers, Neale

Aaah, neale, once you have sampled frogfish and sharks and walking batfish, it takes great strength to walk back to FW.
 
Just going back to the point of sponsors..

OK they have paid for that spot, but isn't it irresponsible of TFF to allow a site such as TF4U to advertise such a site? I agree members should have to pay to advertise their products, but you are clearly allowing an unprofessional business, with what seems very little knowledge on the fish they are selling to have a banner on this site. It's pathetic, it's basically pushing a site onto us, when they don't even know anything about the subject they are dealing with! I honestly believe William should re-think to type of sites he allows to become sponsors of TFF.
 
Hah! Am I allowed to mention I kept an Ogcocephalus in a marine aquarium for a while?
You may indeed mention it. And as such, by dint of previous statement, you have great strength, though through research enviorns you have managed to keep a number of fish most hobbyiests could never hope to attain.

And if I ever find a smaller walking batfish for sale I can see myself rapidly changing how my reef tank is set up to accomdate one (after the apparently obligatory internal parasite and worming treatment).
 
I just saw this post and forgive me if I say some redundant things. I'm sure that, as a moderator, some of my comments will come across as self-serving, but, here are my thoughts.

Personally, I find this forum as one of the most 'warmest' around. I've been to several others as well and I keep finding myself 'coming home'. Wherever you go, you will always find people who don't see eye to eye, but, this is what keeps things interesting.

Having started out in FW, then migrated to salt, I can tell you that I still LOVE my 46G FW tank and will never give it up. I feel sorry for those 'converters' to salt that DO give up FW. There is nothing 'superior' to having a SW tank and there is nothing more admirable than running both. It makes you a diversified aquarist. This site was started as predominantly FW and it was a privilege here to have SW. In fact, our new nano section is just great. Know something? I wouldn't want to be like Reef Central. I hated Bio101 with 750 students in it.

People forget. Yes...Reef Central is prettier, bigger, more articles, etc. Have you tried their search engine? If you haven't plunked down your $25, you ain't gonna use it except at 5 AM. At least, I had trouble with it ALL the time. I found the people ruder, more haughty, etc. Haven't been back there for quite some time.

What it comes down to is simply where you feel more comfortable. if you need to chat about the War in Iraq or petrol prices in the UK, then, yeah....this place is about fish and will not fill your needs. If you need to play with the bigboys, then, Reef Central is the place for you and paying money is the best way to search the site.

If you feel like home and being amongst friends, count on finding me here.

SH
 

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