Talking about Freshwater Stingrays

[CarloM12]

So this thread is going to be discussing freshwater stingrays in general. About a month ago I purchased a teacup stingray for my community tank with Discus, thinking they would get along. Contrary to popular beliefs, the discus nipped at the ray’s disc and killed it. A month layer, I’ve gotten a bit bored of my discus, and am looking to switch to stingrays. In my tank I have smaller angelfish, Roseline sharks, tetras, and dwarf Cichlids like rams, kribensis, etc. It is a 125 gallon tank, but I will give the stingray when it gets larger back to my LFS, I know the manager really well and he’ll take it into an indoor pond. I am looking at a Motoro stingray of smaller size to begin with, and I am looking to keep it for around 2 years or so in my tank. I’m not really concerned about the stingray eating the tetras as I don’t think it will happen often cause the teacup I had didn’t even try. What I am concerned about is the same thing happening to the ray of getting it’s disc bitten. My smaller angelfish didn’t do it with the teacup, but for example I was looking to add larger angels in place of the discus, but it came to my mind that it could happen again. I was originally told discus would be fine, but I had about 4 just attack the rays disc from different sides all day. I even had geophagus before, but not sure if that would work cause I’m not willing to risk anything larger that will harm the stingray.

I guess the question is, are there any larger fish that I could replace the discus with that won’t harm the ray. I don’t want to have just small fish of around 2-3 inches, I need something noticeable from far away to catch the eye. Thanks.

 

[Byron]

I am assuming this tank is the one described in your other thread, with angelfish, discus, clown loaches, roseline barbs, and etc.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/discus-disasters.446537/

There is no room for any other fish, even with the discus removed. And assuming this tank is 5 feet in length, it is not sufficient space for the clown loaches. Even if it is 6 feet, that is minimum for this species that needs an 8-foot tank.

I doubt you will find any members here who agree with acquiring potentially large fish and keeping them in too small a tank, even temporarily, when the intent is to give them away rather than provide a proper tank. Fish develop continually, and while this approach may seem OK, it is not; the fish will be detrimentally affected.

The other problems in this tank were set out in the other thread.

 

[CarloM12]

the tank is 6 feet in length. Forgot to mention that I'm giving the clown loaches away, hence the reason I didn't mention them in my stock list. And by "Large" fish, I'm talking about fish that catch the eye, like roseline sharks. I'm not talking about fish like oscars lol. Fish that can coesist with the stingray, that won't bother it. Larger angelfish came to my mind at first, but I'm uncertain as to whether or not they'll nip the ray like the discus did.

 

[Byron]

The discus problem was most likely due to the combination of species as I and others pointed out in the other thread. Same may hold for angelfish obviously.

The so-called Roseline Sharks, Sahyadria denisonii, need a group of eight (or more) or they can turn to fin nipping. I don't know how many you have. They are also lower-level fish, remaining close to the substrate, which sounds a warning bell to me when a ray is mentioned.

My earlier comment hasn't changed, so this is still not something I and others here will agree with.

And as you are a new member and have no idea about me, I will say that I am not trying to be difficult, but I have considerable knowledge of fish species and habitats, and the number of times I and other members are having to try and convince others that this or that is not appropriate can be frustrating to say the least. We all care very much for our fish, they are living creatures that deserve nothing except the best we can provide, and that means recognizing the needs of a species and providing that, if we are going to acquire them.

Byron.

 

[Demeter32]

I strongly agree with Byron. I don't think you should be getting fish because you have become bored/frustrated with the others you have. You won't be able to care for the ray long term so there isn't much point in getting it. I don't know how to put this, when you say you've had the discus for a month and are already "bored" it really rubs me (and probably others) the wrong way.

Also, rays will eat smaller fish while they are "sleeping" at night. The 2 rays you had before didn't try eating the other fish because they were stressed enough to die. Your tank is currently a "community" setting and rays really aren't meant to be in community tanks with smaller, incompatible fish.

The best advice I can give you is check out "the king of DIY" on youtube. He keeps sting rays along with various cichlids and schooling species. All his fish are extremely well cared for and he keeps his rays in a 2000gal tank. He knows how to properly care for rays.

 

[CarloM12]

I strongly agree with Byron. I don't think you should be getting fish because you have become bored/frustrated with the others you have. You won't be able to care for the ray long term so there isn't much point in getting it. I don't know how to put this, when you say you've had the discus for a month and are already "bored" it really rubs me (and probably others) the wrong way.

Also, rays will eat smaller fish while they are "sleeping" at night. The 2 rays you had before didn't try eating the other fish because they were stressed enough to die. Your tank is currently a "community" setting and rays really aren't meant to be in community tanks with smaller, incompatible fish.

The best advice I can give you is check out "the king of DIY" on youtube. He keeps sting rays along with various cichlids and schooling species. All his fish are extremely well cared for and he keeps his rays in a 2000gal tank. He knows how to properly care for rays.

Ok two things. I've had the discus for 1 year actually, it's been a month since the death of my last teacup ray. I have 8 roseline barbs, never caused me problems with the other ray either. And the previous teacup ray only started to get bullied a few days in, before that it was eating, healthy perfectly fine and didn't eat any of my tetras. And again even if it did, I wouldn't have cared too much. I have lots of experience in the hobby, been doing it for almost 10 years now. Kept big south americans, smaller south americans, africans, and a year or so ago switched from africans to a communtiy tank cause of incomprehensible aggression. I've had success with this tank so far other than with the discus as of recently.

 

[fluttermoth]

I'd just like to add a few points to add to what Byron and Demeter have already said.

First of all, we try very, very hard on this forum to promote best practice.

This means that sometimes we will advise against things that can work, or that people have made work, because they're not optimal in terms of fish health or welfare.

Keeping fish in tanks that are too small for their entire lives is a long way from best practice. Fish kept in those conditions are very prone to becoming stunted, which seriously affects their long term prospects; even if they're rehomed to a larger tank, the damage is already done, and the problem with stunting is that you can't know or notice it's happened until it's already too late.

...it was eating, healthy perfectly fine and didn't eat any of my tetras. And again even if it did, I wouldn't have cared too much...

I'm afraid it's statements like this that are inclined to get people's backs up

If I was breeding cats, and then decided to change to pitbulls, would it be okay to let them eat the kittens?

Your fish didn't choose to be owned by you, and I very strongly believe we have a duty of care to any animal that we bring into our homes, even something as small and 'insignificant' as a tetra.

 

[CarloM12]

I'd just like to add a few points to add to what Byron and Demeter have already said.

First of all, we try very, very hard on this forum to promote best practice.

This means that sometimes we will advise against things that can work, or that people have made work, because they're not optimal in terms of fish health or welfare.

Keeping fish in tanks that are too small for their entire lives is a long way from best practice. Fish kept in those conditions are very prone to becoming stunted, which seriously affects their long term prospects; even if they're rehomed to a larger tank, the damage is already done, and the problem with stunting is that you can't know or notice it's happened until it's already too late.




I'm afraid it's statements like this that are inclined to get people's backs up

If I was breeding cats, and then decided to change to pitbulls, would it be okay to let them eat the kittens?

Your fish didn't choose to be owned by you, and I very strongly believe we have a duty of care to any animal that we bring into our homes, even something as small and 'insignificant' as a tetra.

Yes I agree, but money has to be factored in somewhere. Would you rather have your stingray die or your tetras. Neither, but if you had to pick one then it would be the tetras. We as hobbyists also have to understand that the more expensive fish unfortunately are the most important. We can say that all fish are equal, but if that was the case, why do pet stores mistreat feeder fish, and give more expensive fish better lives? It's about the money, therefore if a feeder fish dies not one person will care. It's just the way it is.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Yes I agree, but money has to be factored in somewhere. Would you rather have your stingray die or your tetras. Neither, but if you had to pick one then it would be the tetras. We as hobbyists also have to understand that the more expensive fish unfortunately are the most important. We can say that all fish are equal, but if that was the case, why do pet stores mistreat feeder fish, and give more expensive fish better lives? It's about the money, therefore if a feeder fish dies not one person will care. It's just the way it is.

I have to disagree with you there. People do care if feeder fish die. The ones that know the proper care and truly love what they do. There shouldn't even be feeder fish in my opinion due to the diseases they likely carry. Anyway....that's a different topic. I believe if you really want a type of fish then you need to care for it their entire life. That's what I'm in this hobby for. I want to find things I love and keep them. My 55 when it gets set up is going to have a ton of a "cheap" glowlight tetra. There are other fish, bigger, that I would love to keep but I won't do it unless I can get the proper tank size for them. And again, I will keep them for their lifespan because it is something I will enjoy.

So...if you don't really care about these tetras....why not rehome them or take them to your lfs for credit? That would solve the possible eating problem.

 

[SeanTrollope]

I have to agree.

But as a person who has bred fish and kept very big cilclids I can fully understand why breeders breed feeder fish. This is because these fish require live and relatively large food. Ie guppies that will never sell because they lack color. These in particular are going to go to waste anyway so they might as well be used for something. Yes it is very sad but it is also needed to condition these fish.

In your case take them back even if it is for free as it will only add stress to your fish tank.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

 

[Byron]

Yes I agree, but money has to be factored in somewhere. Would you rather have your stingray die or your tetras. Neither, but if you had to pick one then it would be the tetras. We as hobbyists also have to understand that the more expensive fish unfortunately are the most important.

This has completely missed the point the rest of us have been making. The situation of either the stingray or the tetras dying should never arise in the first place. We as aquarists would not consider acquiring a stingray for this very reason...we cannot provide the proper environment.

You have (or had) many fish in this tank that were totally non-compatible either with each other, or in the available space individually. I took the time to spell this out as best as I could in the other thread. The mere fact that several fish were dying or became abnormally aggressive proves that something was wrong, and I explained probable reasons.

We can say that all fish are equal, but if that was the case, why do pet stores mistreat feeder fish, and give more expensive fish better lives? It's about the money, therefore if a feeder fish dies not one person will care. It's just the way it is.

This is not anywhere near the same issue. We have been talking about acquiring fish for the home aquarium. If you are unable to provide the proper environment for a fish at the time of acquisition, you should not acquire it. Read the two citations in my signature block. They are written by competent and respected hobbyists; Dr. Loiselle is a first class ichthyologist.

Aquarists have, or should have, a sense of responsibility. I have not considered acquiring several fish over the years, simply because I knew I could not provide what they need to be healthy. I have a fish room with 8 tanks, and I have been keeping fish for 25+ years. I learned this lesson well, and it has saved many fish.

Understanding the complex physiology and metabolism of a fish is a lesson well learned, because fish are unique among all animals in their direct interrelationship to their aquatic environment. The fish's homeostasis functions at its optimum only in a very specific environment. Even the largest aquarium is a very small space to the fish, but it can work--but only if that environment provides what that species expects. These expectations for their environment is programmed into the species' DNA, and if it is not recognized by the aquarist and provided, the fish will never be healthy.

"Environment" as I've used the word above means water parameters, substrate material, wood, rock, plants, leaves, numbers for a shoaling species, light, water current, and other species. When other species are included, then there are other factors, like swimming activity, position in the water column, behaviours. If any one of these factors of "environment" are not what the fish expects, its metabolism is affected. Stress is caused, and stress is the direct cause of 95% of all aquarium fish diseases.

 

[SeanTrollope]

Yes. No fish should have to suffer because of the inability to escape a predator introduced into a confined environment like a fish tank. Especially when it is purely because somebody wants to change what their fish tank looks like.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I have to agree.

But as a person who has bred fish and kept very big cilclids I can fully understand why breeders breed feeder fish. This is because these fish require live and relatively large food. Ie guppies that will never sell because they lack color. These in particular are going to go to waste anyway so they might as well be used for something. Yes it is very sad but it is also needed to condition these fish.

In your case take them back even if it is for free as it will only add stress to your fish tank.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

I mostly mean feeder fish from the store. It is a bit different if you do it yourself as you can control the environment and care of the feeder fish and keep them extremely healthy. Pet stores really don't care for anything but the money.

Anyway, I agree with Byron and the others. The truth may be hard to hear but even fish deserve complete care no matter the price.

 

[SeanTrollope]

Yes that is the difference.


Yes. Especially since e kak the decision to put them in our tanks in the first place.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

 

[fluttermoth]

I have to agree.

But as a person who has bred fish and kept very big cilclids I can fully understand why breeders breed feeder fish. This is because these fish require live and relatively large food. Ie guppies that will never sell because they lack color. These in particular are going to go to waste anyway so they might as well be used for something. Yes it is very sad but it is also needed to condition these fish.

In your case take them back even if it is for free as it will only add stress to your fish tank.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

Can I just point out that anyone who really knows about fish would not, under any circumstances, be using guppies, goldfish or rosy red minnows as feeders.

Apart from the fact that there are, in reality, very, very few fish that are true obligate piscivores, and not mentioning the welfare issues, all those commonly used 'feeder fish' contain an enzyme called thiaminase, which breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1).

Although the effects of long term vitamin deficiencies in fish aren't fully understood, it's certainly a cause for concern and is something that should be avoided, as commercial fisheries do.